How Non Violence Protects The State -Talk and Interview

by Triple AAA Tue Sep 09, 2008 14:17

The author & activist Peter Gelderloos spoke to a packed meeting in Bristol on 23 January 2008, as part of the tour mentioned in the initial post.

Prior to his talk there was a fairly long debate on the newswire on a thread named ‘Time to start winning again’ – see http://www.bristol.indymedia.org/article/27274

There’s a brief report on the meeting, under the thread above, which you can jump to here http://www.bristol.indymedia.org/article/27274?&condens...37012

No doubt this debate may well continue at this Saturday’s Bristol Anarchist Bookfair.

by EXC Tue Sep 09, 2008 14:26

imcvols's - can you leave this up as it will be of interest to Bristol people as he gave a talk here and there was much debate on the site about the topic; http://bristol.indymedia.org/article/27274

by Interested Outsider Sat Sep 13, 2008 00:49

I must admit, I personally don't see the logic in competing with the State at what they do best. And what is the point in having a public meeting about doing stuff that's (a) illegal, (b) considered antisocial by most people, (c) bad publicity and (d) you're not good at and don't have the equipment to do.

Let me expand on this: The government's got bombs, guns, rockets, nukes, and actual killer robots, as well as vast numbers of trained staff who are professionals in the application of violence and in the use of the tools of war. We've got: Jumble sales, second hand clothes, pushbikes, sound systems, hippies, anarcho-punks, cynical old gits, glassy eyed SWPers and, er, probably the odd undercover cop.

Now, I don't know about having an ideology that's pro or anti-violence - certainly there's something to be said for self-defence, for instance, or even political violence in a desperate situation such as the fight against Fascism, or self-policing - BUT - there's something about actively choosing the path of systematic violence to get what you want, that really works for the State.

For a start, it means the State is justified in doing whatever it wants to stop you, and as explained above the State have all the tools and the personell they'll ever need. Secondly, it means that you become a terrorist - and this means being part of an elite, macho culture that accepts that inevitably bystanders will get hurt and doesn't care. Thirdly - it doen't work. Millions of Iraqis, Vietnamese, Afghans and Chechens have died this way, the Palestinians and Israelis have been beating seven bells out of each other for fifty years to no avail, while in the West, from the Weather Underground to the Red Army Faction to the Unabomber, terrorism has proved an utter, horrible failure both politically and "tactically". Put simply, if you kill a cop or a politicians, another one will take their place and they will send the army in to blast you with rockets. Forget it.

Or perhaps you're thinking of provoking people into mass violence? Yeah that really worked for the mineworkers, the cold-war era Chezchoslovakians, and hey! Those guys that smashed up McDonalds back in the 90s, 'cause the mines didn't all close, the Checzhs were totally liberated in 1968, and I hear McDonalds utterly disintigrated as a company...!

I kid, of course. Checzhs were liberated by history, in other words by the failure of force and power, not by it's appropriation. McDonalds is going to disintigrate because capitalism will disintigrate - the real question is what you replace it with, and if you go around hitting people to get your way, it's not going to be anything good.

Ultimately, if you have a world where everyone uses force to get what they want, what do you have? Fascism, Starship Troopers, street thugs, pointless wars, terrorism, craziness. In other words - more of the same! Isn't the more sane choice to explore ways of living that mean we don't have to hurt people?

by Ostrich Sat Sep 13, 2008 08:53

Accepted you've made some good points, Interested Outs, but any suggestions other than do nothing?

Do we simply watch the creeping cancer of capitalism, that like a fish rots from the head down, as it consumes the world from the bottom up?

The profit seeking gang of criminals at the top are in the process of creating a society bereft of morals.

Do those who are the conscience of the nation meekly sit in the road and get beaten up by our baton wielding, "guardians of the peace"? Damned if you do damned if you don't.

Must we be forced to watch state-violence against the helpless, here and in other lands, and do nothing?

Have we no responsibility to those who come after us, to our grandchildren?

by Interested Outsider Sun Sep 14, 2008 00:17

Accepted you've made some good points, Interested Outs, but any suggestions other than do nothing?

That's right - do nothing! Doing nothing can be a powerful statement - think of it as a form of strike.

Nothing can save the world from capitalism, and only the Nothingness that it creates can destroy it. That's how rotten societies fall - people just quit working, slack off, and get pissed. It even works in the military - that's what got the Americans out of Vietnam, radical apathy. Soldiers refused to fight and did something more constructive - like get wasted - instead. There is some evidence that this also is what happened among the civilian population in the Soviet Union. Pretty cool huh?

Do we simply watch the creeping cancer of capitalism, that like a fish rots from the head down, as it consumes the world from the bottom up?

No, you simply sit back and watch it fall apart, and while you're waiting for it to collapse you design something a bit better to base the next one on.

The profit seeking gang of criminals at the top are in the process of creating a society bereft of morals.

Is this a moral crusade then?

Do those who are the conscience of the nation meekly sit in the road and get beaten up by our baton wielding, "guardians of the peace"? Damned if you do damned if you don't.

If you like. I personally prefer to slink off and do something more interesting than contribute to the system in the first place.

Must we be forced to watch state-violence against the helpless, here and in other lands, and do nothing?
Have we no responsibility to those who come after us, to our grandchildren?

WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?!

Seriously, this kind of moralism is a real problem. How do you think they get people to fight in their wars or join the police force, except through moral blackmail? You'll have to think of a better reason than that to run around breaking the law and getting beaten up and shot, especially when, as I say, there are far easier ways to get back at the system...

by Ostrich Sun Sep 14, 2008 08:04

Well, "Interested Outsider", you can keep right out of it and watch paint dry if you want, me, i'm on the Manchester Protest next saturday.

Surely the death and destruction wreaked by US-UK imperial wars cannot be ignored and your policy of "do nothing" will be interpreted by our war criminal politicians as condoning this slaughter.

In a country where every citizen knows every nuance, every twist and every turn of the entrails of Madeline McCann, but are told nothing of the thousands of little Madelines we are vapourising in the Middle East, we should scream out our outrage.

So you "slink off" (your words) and merge into the background if you're conscience will allow. Ignore, if you can, the US-UK as they continue to sow cluster bombs to blow off limbs, and Depleted Uranium for people like you and me to breath.

Hopefully not too many good folk will heed your advice.

Each one of us can make a difference and it is our moral duty to give up just one day of our lives to massively demonstrate.

A few more two million protest marches, and those white collared, clean finger nailed Members of Parliament, advocates of illegal unnecessary war, would be forced to listen to our heart felt plea,

"WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?!"

by Interested Outsider Mon Sep 15, 2008 02:58

I don't see why you think that two million people walking around in a circle is going to change anything the second time, it didn't work before and it won't work again.

I also honestly don't think you understand the true power of "do nothing". When I say "nothing", I mean, NOTHING. Imagine if everyone in the army did NO THINGS for a day? How about if everyone in the weapons factories just sat on their arse doing NOTHING? It's called a strike. And even when strikes are outlawed, there is other stuff, not even sabotage, just passive-agressive behaviour and refusal to follow the rules which can really put a spanner in the works. Little things that you can do to mess up the machine in everyday life is more powerful than any "protest movement" which can so easily be manipulated by the State, not to mention locked up, jailed, beaten up, intimidated.... meanwhile resistance is a state of mind and therefore immortal, a virus that can be transmitted by words, not guilt ridden middle class bollox (can I say bollox?) and hand wringing over someone elses crimes.

I mean, come on - What's the point of turning up on a bunch of poxy demos every six months when you're paying tax and working for the system the rest of the year? You don't make a revolution by feeling guilty about the crimes of your rulers - that's the basic lie that they want you to believe, that you're responsible for their shit. You're not. You're responsible for your part in it - like the tax that pays for bombs, or the general contribution to the economy, so why not make your contribution to the war machine a negative one? Steal from work. Steal from the government. Park old cars in no parking zones next to government buildings and glue the locks up. Go on the dole. Rip off your insurance company, take out loans and don't pay them back, troll the system in real life for great justice! - whatever your imagination can come up with.

It doesn't have to be a big solemn miserable march that everyone ignores anyway, there's all kinds of underground shit you can do, you just need an imagination beyond the usual speech making walking round in circles IslamoTrotballs, although I must say I think those anarchists are trying too hard they do have the right idea - liberation is something personal that has to happen to you, inside, not just to the world out there. Think outside of the box and unleash creativity on the system, at the very least you can just drop out and refuse to be part of it instead of working your ass off for the bastards, for no goood reason the rest of your life.

I mean, people need to get their minds out of the little box they've put themselves in, this all or nothing, black-and-white world of either being for the government or for the terrorists, - notice that you're never allowed to be for yourself or your friends - so why not stop thinking in black and white, moralistic terms and appreciate the world in glorious Technicolor?

Lots of luck on the 20th anyway. I'd be more enthused if I wasn't sure the war will still be going on come the 21st...

by Ostrich Mon Sep 15, 2008 08:34

Congratulations, "Interested Outsider", all that stuff you have listed in your comment, excellent disruptive ideas that really are worth bearing in mind.

And if you practice all these things that you preach, no one could really blame you for not going the extra mile in trying to make our mass protest a sucess.

But cheating and stealing isn't in everybody's remit even if it's for a good cause, so the only way open to us is by peaceful protest.

And your description of a mass protests as a "big solemn miserable march" makes it obvious to me that you've never even been on one.

Every anti-war demonstration, since 2001, that i've attended has been a most enjoyable affair with wonderful vibrant, genuine, warm people, samba bands, music, colourful banners and unbelievable camaraderie.

And far from "hand wringing over someone elses crimes", as you put it, we're bloody well angry, angry that Home Secretary Jaqui Smith voted for rape in other peoples lands.

That nice puritanical Jaqui Smith voted for rape, murder, and all the other attendant atrocities of illegal invasion when she followed pop star Blair in her unthinking, supercilious support for him as he lied us into Iraq.

And now to compound the seriousness of her mistake she oversees a swathe of anti-terror laws that has made us prisoners in our own surveillance police state.

If she and many of those polished individuals in the government(?) didn't realise the seriousness, the catastrophe, her vote for war on the 18th March 2003 would engender, she's too stupid to be a member of parliament, and if she did know, she's too wicked.

They should all be standing handcuffed together at a war criminal trial in the Hague..

Of mass protests, you say "it didn't work before and it won't work again", you are wrong!

Each mass demonstration is another drop of water that pierces the rock, - even if it's not shown on the BBC.

In the present economic climate the last thing Gordon Groan needs is the expense of policing another mass demonstration.

So, "Interested Outsider", you carry on in your own individual way and glue up a few locks if that's what does it for you.

Those who genuinely look to a better, fairer world will make every effort to demonstrate at Manchester.

Stay home and the misinformation spread by the government, the BBC, and you, "Interested Outsider", will have won.

by Interested Outsider Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:39

But cheating and stealing isn't in everybody's remit even if it's for a good cause, so the only way open to us is by peaceful protest.
And your description of a mass protests as a "big solemn miserable march" makes it obvious to me that you've never even been on one.


1) I thought the whole point of this thread was that we need more vilence0rz?

2) I've been to plently - It certainly isn't life affirming to march around a town, usually being led away from the government buildings or whatever we're marching at by the ̶c̶o̶p̶s SWP, having dead babies shoved in my face and hanging out with right wing, religious fundamentalists, then listening to some boring speeches and at the end of the exhausting day, going home to watch the media take the piss out of how powerless and pathetic the demo was.

If that's your idea of a good time, you must be some sort of masochist. Fair enough, but don't tell me that this is going to acheive results because I have been going to SWP marches on and off since the early 90s and NOTHING EVERY HAPPENS AS A RESULT. In fact the SWP are the kiss of death to just about any cause you care to mention; in my experience it is the creativity of everyday misfits, young people, peaceniks and hippies that have had more effect on government policy than the march, march, march brigade.

(love the sarcsm btw!)