Stokes Croft Tesco about to reopen

by Oglach na Stokes Croft Wed May 11, 2011 09:06

Behind all this Tesco's stuff is a lot of other crap. Stuff to do with the right to squat and big money wanting to move in and occupy inner city areas all over the UK. Bristol's the guinea pig for this and that's why battle kicked off and will keep on kicking off, again and again. There's an agenda to gentrify the area and get rid of poor people. Mr Port is the enforcer of the ConDem fascist state.

At present Tesco is simply the thin edge of the wedge. We'll need to from resistance collectives that are open to all the area's diverse groups, and devise a concerted strategy to resist it.

by NULL Wed May 11, 2011 12:09

Guys, get over it. I'm sick of all this facist state c*ap. If you dont like this country the move. Go to an island and set up you "ideals" there.

You are a MINORITY not a majority and it will always be that way. People are bored of your wining and moaning.

Tell me this...what would you do with the building if it wasnt a Tesco...Nothing. You give nothing back to the community (bar a few art shows, or bookfairs). Yes I agree that tesco is a giant monopoly and yes they are sucking the blood out of "some" communities but tell me honestly where else there is a decent local shop in stokes croft...and please dont bore me with the usual Picton St stuff or organic line...its all a farse anyway. Why would I pay 25% more for a tomatoe beacuse it was grown by someone that thinks they are special.

All I hope is that teh Stokes Croft Festival goes on without any hicups.

Do us all a favour and move on.

By the way...I think the Police did a great job with the protests...imagine if they hadnt been there...sure you would have complained about that!!

Also, do you not find it a tad ironic that some so called local businesses were damaged in the riots. Or wait are you going to tell me it that sometimes neccesary damage is acceptable!??

by ethos Wed May 11, 2011 13:30

The lesson of this country is that minorities take power. The Tories have always formed minority governments regarding % of population who support them. If you think because people are a minority at any time or place in history, then all the mainstream parties should fuck off to some foreign country too. The most obvious place for them to go is to the unstable dictatorships they have long supported and propped up in the middle east and elsewhere.

By your logic there would be no politics whatsoever in this country.

On a more minor issue of Tesco, these high street Tesco shops always charge well over the odds of what they charge in their bigger branches. Well above the prices they charge in their bigger branches. So while smaller independent shops charge higher prices because they have higher costs. Tesco charge higher prices on the basis of making higher mark ups which they refuse to pass on in full on the high street.

Or, in short, none of your tabloid rantings make any logical sense.

You are simply not very intelligent.

by DogWalker123 Wed May 11, 2011 14:05

I would suggest that a minority of unelected individuals telling others where to shop is more akin to Fascism. Especially when those same people don't get their way so resort first to "peaceful" protest and intimidation of customers outside the store, then resort to smashing the shop (and the area) up. Oh yes and making petrol bombs - see the PRSC youtube video after the riots where one resident of the squat openly admits that petrol bombs were being made (at 5 mins in)

What if it wasn't a Tesco but a Migrants Welfare Centre that had been targeted first by a vicious hate campaign against planning, then by a EDL protest outside, and finally by a BNP led riot?

Democracy is about the majority. It also gives you your right to protest. However legitimate protest does not take the form "agree with me or I'll smash you in the face". That is called Fascism.

by godwinish Wed May 11, 2011 14:34

It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

.......................

Mind you there is a key difference. Nazism was an ultra extreme variant of Fascism. The two are often confused. It doesn't help when there is no attempt made to clarify this. However, one key definition of Fascism, as opposed to Nazism, is that Fascism involves the enforcement of corporate power through state power.

This is a definition which fits our current society, although calling it Fascism is lost as a definition due to the way in which people do not understand that their are essential differences between Fascism and Nazism. The original Fascist state was in fact the Roman Empire, which is where the Nazi Salute originates from.

For good or bad, most modern states are run roughly along those Roman lines set down 2,000 odd years ago. But due to these confusions, anytime anyone invokes Fascism or Nazism against another, for whatever reasons, it just fall a little flat. So this thread has unfortunately reached '1' from the outset.

by NULL Wed May 11, 2011 15:15

Thank you dog walker for your usual, intelligent imput and support for those that disagree with the actions of the Easter Weekend protests. You are a ray of sunshine on an otherwise cloudy day. Facist state, thats what it would become if we let the majority of extremist indy media users run the country.

100% support for the Police and our lovely democracy. At least they look after us all. Imagine that...no police!?

We'd all live in fear!

One final thought, people need to step back and think about what we would be like with no democracy and truely free speech. Look at Syria, Iran...We should be grateful for what we have. At least we can be free here and not shot in the street. Imagine that hey...All the people like ethos and his friends dont appreciate how lucky we are to live in such a free country...its selfish to think otherwise and jaded.

Keep the comments coming my friend. Keep them coming.

by logo Wed May 11, 2011 15:51

Dogwalker123 wrote - "agree with me or I'll smash you in the face"

A fitting logo to Place on every Police vehicle.

by "a thin line between stupid and clever" Wed May 11, 2011 17:47

I started reading NULL's comment as a sarky bit of irony taking the piss out of dog walker and then suddenly i wasn't so sure..........

With a name like 'NULL' as well?

Comedy has become so refined these days, you only need to be a decade or so behind the times (a la dog walker) and you find yourself in the David Brent category

by contact Wed May 11, 2011 18:47

The police since their origins were intentionally created with their political and civilian roles conflated. Those who protest at political policing are told that this means that we must object to all policing. This is just dishonest straw man posturing.

An honest approach would be to have one police force for political policing and another for civilian policing. Then people wouldn't be able to insanely claim we object to police catching rapists, etc. Or for that matter, and even more darkly, for the people to claim while they were policing protests they weren't able to catch the rapist, etc.

Sadly, many people are just not able or intelligent enough, to see this sinister nature of this intentional conflation of political and civilian policing. Or worse, become complicit in spreading these sinister lies.

by respect Wed May 11, 2011 20:21

This appears to be the youtube post dogwalker123 refers to, which also appears to refute the allegation of petrol bombs being made, although details the nature of the rumour too. Importantly, no petrol bombs were in fact used. The ingredients for petrol bombs exist in almost every household and could have been made and used at any time, regardless of any the police may or may not have seized previously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hze4dt1P-5A

They were not used.

It is more orwellianism, to my mind, that some people continue to act as if they were.

However, riots are often marked out by the use of petrol bombs, and if tensions again escalate, protestors may not be so restrained. Let's hope they do remained restrained in the context of what a riot means.

The only petrol bomb in the act of being used on Stokes remains the virtual one in Banky's mural.

by DogWalker123 Wed May 11, 2011 21:34

The video clearly shows some squat residents admitting there was a guy making petrol bombs.

THAT is enough for the police to move in on.

My previous post transcribing it has been removed so I guess the truth hurts.

I will try again, minus my comments to the guy that accused me of being a counter intelligence operative for refuting his post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hze4dt1P-5A

Said by one of the residents of the squat: "Then there was this guy, yeah, making molotov cocktails, yeah, and I said mate, what are you doing?"

Another resident: "yeah man, what are you doing?"

Chalkley: "So what happened then, did someone throw petrol bombs then?"

Resident: "no its just a rumour they all turned up on a rumour"

Chalkley: "so they all turned up on a rumour that there were loads of petrol bombs here and there wren't any?"

Resident starts talking about eviction party.

So we have a clear admission that someone was making petrol bombs, followed by repeated questions by Chalkley as to whether there were petrol bombs that weren't answered. The only things that are confirmed by the residents are that

1) There was a bloke making petrol bombs
2) No petrol bombs were thrown.

by jonesy Wed May 11, 2011 21:43

For more on the singluar petrol bomb apparently found, see the first comment on this thread.
http://bristol.indymedia.org/article/704469

It claims there may be a case for some kind of diminished responsibility for the individual, which is possibly underlined by the opening article, which oddly says while his initial plea was 'guilty' he was subsequently 'unsure' of what his plea was. This is early days, and speculative. But given that only one alleged petrol bomb was found, by an individual who has a reputation for 'telling tales' this seems odd.

Either way, the idea of some kind of conspiracy to produce mass amounts of petrol bombs, which has been implied by the Police on many occassions, seems to be threadbare or completely undermined.

However, even if future riots are marked out by the use of petrol bombs, this still must be analysed and understood within the context of why any riot happens. To suggest it is simply the work of thugs is more the language of dictatorships in denial, than democracies which should seek to understand why these things happen in the first place and adapt to them instead of trying to demonise those involved.

by anon Wed May 11, 2011 23:51

The rioting was actually pretty tame. No cars were torched, or even used as barricades! (as far as I know). Although the kids did have some fun with a bait cop car that got left there accidentally on purpose on the first night.

I mean, ffs, by French standards it's not even a good Saturday night unless a couple of cars have been torched.

by Orwell Thu May 12, 2011 09:38

The residents of Stokes Croft looked from anarchist to fascist, and from fascist to anarchist, and from anarchist to fascist again; but it was already impossible to say which was which.

by csmith Thu May 12, 2011 23:38

Tescos are re-opening

Gallifords will continue doing great business

Licata will carry on doing great business

Radford Mill will carry on doing great business

Some people will shop at Tesco

People will drink coffee on Stokes Croft

People will paint things

The police will carry on helping out residents and businesses in Stokes Croft deal with petty crime which goes on every day

Local working class people will continue to live in their houses and pay the same rent/ mortgage they were last year.

Some local people will live in the newly built social housing on Cheltenham Road, Ashley Road and Backfields - having been given preference through the local lettings/ sales policy.

'Telepathic Heights' will be redeveloped and sold on for a profit by Bristol City Council. People will live there.

People will squat in other empty buildings in Bristol while they are not being used for anything else.

I could go on...

by local Fri May 13, 2011 09:24

'Csmith' has a very blinkered and typically conservative view of 'community' and most likely is afflicted by capitalistsic tendencies.

Many people in the area CARE about the community, and CARE also about its future.

Those caring people in the community (unlike those afflicted by capitalist tendencies) also think feel and believe that present economic practices and policies are unsustainable both locally AND globally.

Those caring about our community are very well able to connect all the dots, unlike capitalists who prefer to ignore fundamental facts and truths, (to everybodys detriment).

A 'D' in the subject of community spirit and analysis for 'Csmith'.

by NULL Fri May 13, 2011 09:50

Perfect...could not have put it better myself. You've hit the nail on the head there my friend.

Life goes on...regardless of Tesco

by MX Fri May 13, 2011 10:42

Will you ever be happy with your surroundings? I fear not. You will lead a miserable life with that kind of thinking. I feel csmiths comments were just and fair and he factored in everybody's feeling and concerns. I feel you have mearly missed the point of his e-mail. Surely you are not that narrow minded. Surely!? I think deep down you are probably happy with stokes croft and it really doesnt rain on your parade as much as you say it does. Stop trying to be over-intelligent with your views. csmith makes a valid and very true point...and I think you know it...regardless of a tesco being there or not.

by MX Fri May 13, 2011 10:52

Also...what are the fundamental truths you talk about? and what do capitalistic views consist off...in your view and in relation to Stokes Croft...nowhere else. I mean this is what all the fuss has been about? Has anything really changed in stokes croft. Are you business minded enough to tell me or anyone else that local shops are going to or are loosing trade? I feel that it is business as usual for all the local businesses. I will not shop at Tesco out of principal but surely you cannot sit there and tell me that it will be the end of Stokes Croft as we know it? I get that you see it as an invasion of corporations into the area...but really...look inside yourself and can you really see it making any difference to the daily lives of the local community. I doubt you will shop there and many others will choose not to either. Picton St will continue to provide the same local service to the same local people. End of story. Those that shop at Tesco have every right to do so also and lets be honest they are unlikely to be form within the local community.

by memyselfandi Fri May 13, 2011 11:28

What a pity you are so unable to see the vastly bigger local picture csmith, there is so much more to the community than you perceive.

by DogWalker123 Fri May 13, 2011 15:58

@Local

Lovely post. Well, lovely words anyway. Shame about the lack of substance apart from saying that you care about the community. Oh, and you aren't a capitalist.

The rest of it really is tripe. As has been commented, CSmith's post was fairly rounded and took all viewpoints into account. That is the joy of democracy - you hate Tesco I hate rioters. We are both entitled to our opinion.

As for memyselfandi "What a pity you are so unable to see the vastly bigger local picture csmith, there is so much more to the community than you perceiv". What an amazing critique Csmith's post.

My summary of both of you is that your posts amount to "your not right CSmith, I care about the community".

Excellent work, any chance of some elaboration of your views or will you continue to resort to the fingers in ears "Idon't believe you" argument?

by csmith Fri May 13, 2011 17:54

but since some people seem to have made all sorts of judgements about me - I've been involved in all sorts of community activities in this area for several years and live and work in the area, I certainly care about the area and its future. Communities are diverse, we don't all have to have the same opinion about everything. I won't be shopping at Tescos for lots of different reasons. I don't see why I should need to state all this though.

I tried to make my post concise and to the point, I'm not sure what the value is in speculating on who I am and what my political beliefs are - it certainly seems a rather superficial way of trying to discredit my point and fruitless given the anonymity of this comments board.

In response to the original article, fortunately no I don't see that Stokes Croft has entered a state of war in any context or in any way since Tescos opened on Cheltenham Rd.

by Richard Fri May 13, 2011 22:35

Certain postings imply that capitalism is incompatible with caring about the community. But it is not. A capitalist is someone who invests, which is to say risks, a capital investment in the form of their own or borrowed money in a business. Investing in and running a business is entirely compatible with caring about the community, as the long and distinguished roll of business philanthropists amply demonstrates.

I anticipate that attempts will be made to controvert this posting by means of listing cases of uncaring capitalists. This will be a logic fail. I am not saying that all, or indeed most, capitalists care about the community, merely that many do.

I take an interest in this affair, because I live locally. I will not tolerate being told where I can do my shopping by 300 fascist thugs posing as anarchists sticking it to the man. These are OUR streets too. I hope the police catch the rioters, and the law takes its course with them. I thank the police for standing firm against the rocks and the bottles I saw being thrown at them. And I'll tell you what: as soon as Tesco reopens I'm going to do ALL my shopping in there.

by Adele Sat May 14, 2011 10:04

Interesting comment Richard, I hope you are right.

Could you please give me one example of any capitalist who cares more about people and place than profit?

Thanks in advance.

by MX Sat May 14, 2011 10:38

Oh the irony of it all...I find it highly amusing that Dog Walkers comments have been effectively gone through censorship by Indy Media. I had seen his original posts on this thread and would hardly say they amounted to anything that would need to be removed!!! Its so funny that this website only wants people to see what IT wants them to see and the fact that there are "guidelines". Ok, I admit that if comments incited hatred, racism, sexism etc then yes, remove them but the vast majority of comments merely state peoples (entitled) opinions.

The idea of a "free" country that so many people I see on this website strive for seems to be contradicted by the actions such as removal of seemingly innocent posts. Censorship is something that governments do, police do, dictatorships do...correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not what people like local are fighting against!?!

Dog Walker and Csmith have all made fair and just comments!

And again, I find it laughable that childish comments like "Dog Wanker" can be posted...Bitter are we Local or just plain immature!?

Let me guess local....are my comments reserved for the Evening Post as well?! Hah!

by DogWalker123 Sat May 14, 2011 11:04

Dogwanker. Very original. Hilarious (if you are 5 years old in a playground).

Pray tell, which guideline have I broken?

By telling me to only post at BEPP are you implying that I have less of a right to post here than you do? That my right to express myself is less than yours?

5 posts being hidden is more damning on those that cannot engage in cogent argument and resort to "reporting abuse" as a method of argument. 2 of my posts were hidden because the post they responded to were removed. 2 were hidden because they transcribed a youtube clip regarding petrol bombs at the squat in SC. I guess some people prefer ranting to evidence.

by Hope this helps Sat May 14, 2011 12:31

@Dogwalker,

If you go to the 'hidden articles' section of Bristol Indymedia you will find your and others hidden posts, both articles and comments... follow this link: http://www.bristol.indymedia.org.uk/hidden

Your 'perception' as to why your comments were hidden is at variance with the facts... five of your comments have been hidden, two for breaching the Respect Guidelines, two for being Off-topic, and one because it was a response to hidden post which broke respect guideline.

Bristol Indymedia Guidelines can be found here: http://www.bristol.indymedia.org.uk/editorial

Please read them.

by anon Sat May 14, 2011 15:18

What happened to the principle whereby 5 hidden posts meant that the offending user was banned from Bindymedia?

Dogwalker123 has had five posts hidden in less than two days!

Why is he not banned, he's obviously little more than a disrespecting troll!

by Richard Sun May 15, 2011 07:02

I didn't say that capitalists care MORE about people than profit. Indeed, I don't know how it is possible to quantify the AMOUNT of caring for comparison purposes. Perhaps you can enlighten me. I only said that capitalism was COMPATIBLE with caring about people, and that there have in fact been many philanthropical capitalists. I can give you some examples of the latter. Off the top of my head ...

Friederich Engels - Karl Marx's colleague.
Lord Lever - built Port Sunlight for the workers of Leverhulme.
Bill Gates - has donated most of his Microsoft fortune to various projects in Sub-Saharan Africa.
Warren Buffett - has given away much of his fortune, and continues to press other wealthy individuals to do the same.

by Richard Sun May 15, 2011 08:21

Here's a list of 25 business philanthropists:- http://www.businesspundit.com/25-billionaires-and-milli...ists/

I suggest that all of them have done more for their communities than the Stokes Croft have done for mine.

I was going to say that it's a bit of a pain when you ask me to do your research for you, but it isn't really. I found the list bymeans of googling 'business philanthropist', or 'charitable capitalist' or something. It's not hard. You should try it.

by DogWalker123 Mon May 16, 2011 10:55

@hope this helps

Thanks for the link. It is hard to see how the posts break respect guidelines since they simply respond to a post attacking me with reasoned argument and a statement of my position. Apart from my statement that the guy accusing me of being a counter intel operative is a whole new level paranoid IMHO.

Lets have a look at the guidelines and my opinion on whether I have broken them. Anyone else is welcome to look at my hidden posts and let me know how I breached the guidelines:

Discrimination: posts using language, imagery, or other forms of communication promoting racism, fascism, xenophobia, sexism or any other form of discrimination.

No

Inaccurate: posts that are clearly inaccurate or misleading. Where it is uncertain that the intention of the posting was to mislead, the inaccuracy may be questioned or amended via a Comment, rather than the article being hidden.

Absolutely not. The problem seems to be that my presentation of evidence goes against what some users regard as self-evident truths. "Self-evident truths" are always problematic because by their nature they are hard to prove. When stating my opinion it is fairly obvious that it is just that.

Advertising:

No

Hierarchy:

No

Respect: Bristol indymedia is intended to represent the world we are striving to create, rather than the world we live in. A cornerstone of this principle is respect for others, therefore articles or comments that are abusive rather than relying on force of argument are not acceptable

See my first statement. I always attempt to provide reasoning behind my position. Sometimes if abused, I will respond in kind.

@anon

You can try and ban/censor me but surely that is the opposite of the world you are striving for. However I would suggest you will find it impossible to actually stop me posting me because of handle and/or IP address. (Hint: You can ban access from TOR to stop me but that might be a bit counter productive, don't you think).

by torywatcher Mon May 16, 2011 12:56

your opinion does not matter here pal, its totally irrelevant, and utterly wrong, which is why so many of your posts get hidden.

by anon Mon May 16, 2011 14:06

It's not "censorship". We just don't like being wound up by obsessive, weirdo trolls.

by DogWalker123 Mon May 16, 2011 15:01

@Torywatcher

Excellently reasoned, cogent argument. How can I possibly respond?

Obviously you can't fault the actual content of my posts so resorted to telling me that my opinion is irrelevant. Really?

My only conclusion is that you are yet another minority fascist hell bent on telling the majority what they should do/think. Will you come and smash up my house/business if I don't adhere your viewpoint?

I really don't like fascists and didn't realise there would be so many on this website.

by anti-fash-patrol Mon May 16, 2011 17:52

you have only been here a few days and already had 5 posts hidden - today you write "so many fascists on this website" - are you familiar with the concept of respect dogwalker?

by DogWalker123 Mon May 16, 2011 20:05

For the record the majority of my hidden posts have been hidden because they responded to a post that was then hidden because it was abusive and disrespectful to ME. Therefore the response was no longer necessary. I have an email from the moderation group to this effect which is why, I suppose, I haven't been banned.

Here is "Respect" as per ed guidelines: "Respect: Bristol indymedia is intended to represent the world we are striving to create, rather than the world we live in. A cornerstone of this principle is respect for others, therefore articles or comments that are abusive rather than relying on force of argument are not acceptable"

Now I will admit that I may post the odd caustic comment within a longer post. Normally this is in response to being calling "DogWanker"or something equally original. I believe some comments do not merit a reasoned response, rather they should be put down swiftly in the manner that they were delivered. FYI I have apologised to the Mods for reacting when provoked rather than reporting abuse. Personally, though, I am not in favour of "running to teacher" as I am ugly enough to deal with the odd rubbish insult.

I think you will find that my hidden posts do indeed contain "force of argument" ie reasoned and cogent, and are not based on abuse nor do they rely on abuse to get a point across. Contrast that to many of the comments against me here and I believe that even the most simple minded of us should be able to grasp the rank hypocrisy contained herein.

I am 100% open to logical reasoned debate - indeed I enjoy it. I fully understand that others will not agree with me, nor do I expect them to.

What I object to, nay am astonished by, is the lack of reasonable conversation within these posts. I am wondering of topic but then again this whole website relishes in the idea of freedom of speech yet it seems that my speech is not as free as others.

I also find it hard to understand how people with such deep seated opinions and ideas regarding the fundamental truths of how society should function are unable to engage in reasoned debate to support their ideas. Please don't anyone try the tired argument that these truths are not demonstrable via etymology but rely on emotion etc.

Once again I find myself being reminded of Fascism.

Sad really.

by SICK OF TROLLS Mon May 16, 2011 21:48

THIS MIGHT HAVE BEEN AN INTERESTING TOPIC.

by anon Tue May 17, 2011 01:40

DO NOT FEED THE TROLL

by Phillip Tue May 17, 2011 08:32

Dogwalker, do you seriously expect anybody to engage in debate or discussion with the likes of yourself?

Your communication style is like something out of feudal times.

"So many (fascists) on this website" you wrote yesterday, I think you owe the readers of this site an apology for that statement alone.

Many of your posts have been hidden for being off-topic and disrespecting to other users of this space, you should apologise again for wasting their time.

There is nothing to be learned from reading anything you write, this is the last time I shall engage with you.

I echo the words of an earlier contributor here, this could and should have been an above average interesting discussion about development in the community, thanks for nothing dogwalker.

by imcvol Tue May 17, 2011 10:57

Hi - can posters please keep comments on topic.

Thanks

by bill Tue May 17, 2011 11:06

I heard there was lots of anger at the police at a community meeting in St Pauls/Stokes Croft last night over the policing here. Still the seems to be way to many examples of the police acting an nothing more than a state paid security service:
- collusion with EDO http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/02/334463.html
- helping out EDF illegally http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/poll/2011/jan/1...olive
- Stopping protests again major tax-avoiders http://www.ukuncut.org.uk/blog/press-release-uk-uncut-w...icing

Its the police for the rich; “I Can Hire One Half of the Working Class To Kill The Other Half” http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jay_Gould

PS Dogwalker, you've lost the debate, sorry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law