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Recent articles by Alan Lee
"Accounting for ourselves" discussion night Jun 18 13 Dance at Bristol Greeniversity Launch Fri 21st June Jun 17 13 Edson Burton Jun 14 13 Learn to eat healthily - 'Vegucate' yourself in Bristol! bristol |
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press release
 Monday January 07, 2013 15:30 by Alan Lee vegucate.bristol at gmail dot com
 Interested in eating healthily, but don't want to ditch your all-time favourite treats and have salads all the time? Do you always wonder why we love dogs, but eat pigs and wear cows? The upcoming 'Vegucate Bristol Film Series' has all the answers! Our film series shows you the very best of a plant-based lifestyle through screenings of award-winning feature documentaries on the subject. These include Vegucated, Planeat, Got the Facts on Milk?, Forks over Knives and Peaceable Kingdom: The Journey Home. There are also FREE PIZZAS plus plenty of entertainment on offer, with some rip-roaring stand-up comedy, mouthwatering cookery demos and raffle prize draws! Past screenings of Vegucated in Bristol have attracted over 100 visitors each evening, representing a noticeable surge of interest in healthy eating. 'The best thing about our film screenings is that visitors can indulge themselves in the amazing food and comedy on offer while picking up some useful information from the very engaging films,' says the organiser Alan Lee. 'They don't have the pressure of going veggie immediately, but can simply work towards reducing their meat and dairy consumption, and we've got all the pointers for doing just that!' The film series takes place every Tuesday evening from April 2nd to May 7th 2013 at the Polish Club in the Clifton area of Bristol. Each night begins at 6:30 and ends at 10. All food served is 100% plant-based. Admission FREE, donations welcome (suggested donation: 2 pounds). All funds raised go to Vegfam charity, who feeds the hungry across the globe without animal exploitation. Space is limited, and admission begins at 6:30 sharp, so please arrive early to avoid disappointment! For the latest updates, search 'Vegucate Bristol Film Series' on Facebook. For further queries, please contact Vegucate Bristol by email at vegucate.bristol@gmail.com or by phone on 07786850945.
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Fan, thanks for that. I get dragged along to these vegan events a couple of time a year by my sister and aside from having to put up with the holier than thou attitude of much of the people the food is always terrible. The vegan movement could attract a lot more people if the bloody taste of much of what is produced at these events was better !
My sister maintains that poor food is a price worth paying for saving animals but I'm not so sure if that's the right attitude.
The difficulty is both maintaining a healthy diet and eating tasty food when following a Vegan life is difficult. I was Vegan for five years before returning to veggie and I must say it was not a pleasant experience, the food becomes very monotonous and dull and I never stopped craving certain foods even at the end. Until such time as there is an increase in the number of Vegan chefs this will probably continue.
The health issue is also one I found very hard, I was advised quite rightly by my doctor to abandon a Vegan life when I became pregnant and this was when I returned to veggie. I feel sure it was in part due to a Vegan diet that I found it so difficult to get pregnant in the first place and the feeling of being "under the weather" never really went away all the time I was Vegan. There is research being done now about the effects of Vegan on the unborn child by Queens University and it will be interesting to see those results later in the year.
These days I am a happy veggie with a healthy child being raised veggie as well. I intend to remain so and will discourage my daughter from a Vegan life when she is older.
I respect people's right to eat whatever they choose (bit of an alien concept on this site), personally I'm a meat eater but if people want to be vegan that's their choice.
I am however failing to see the point in this advert. Surely those who have a desire to be vegan already are and those who have no such desire won't be swayed by such an event?
Wow, your sister must be a rubbish cook. I eat tasty vegan food every day.
Go visit the annual free vegan fair in town where local people make great vegan meals to sample.
Some companies have tried to reproduce meat and cheese with varying degrees of success. Some of the meat substitutes are nice but don't expect them to taste like beef or pork or chicken, they are just nice and meaty in thier own right. Cheese is just something you will have to learn to live without as its replacements are all types of terrible.
But being vegan is not about replacement its about making great food without meat and dairy.
It's simple, if the only thing that makes your food taste good is a slab or dead animal then you are a bad cook! Understanding food, use of herbs and spices, cooking styles and mixing textures and flavours is how you make good food. Whether you are a vegan or a meat eater, crap cooks make bland food, not a lack of animal products.
Putting aside you insult to my sister (was that really needed? ) the point I was making that my situation is unique, I am a meat eater who regularly eats vegan food. Despite this regular exposure to many vegan meals and cooks my consistent impression of vegan is 'poor food lacking flavour and taste'. I have eaten with my sister in restaurants described as serving some of the ext vegan food in the country and yet still I found boring, dull tasteless food.
I think the ideology of vegan ism often blinds if followers to the bad food they are eating, you seem to fall into that category.
As a chef I can say that the issue with the rather bland flavours that are associated with vegan cooking are a result of the lack of variety in the ingredients. By its very description vegan food does not contain the animal products that we can come to expect as adding taste. Meat has a far stronger reaction on the taste buds than does vegetable matter, this is related to certain acids and enzymes and because humankind has got used to these flavours and associates them with good taste a vegan meal tastes poor to us.
Some compensation can be made with spices etc but they never really replicate the core taste of meat. A balanced diet that contains fish, fowl and a LITTLE red meat is healthy and enjoyable. Vegan ism is not really a diet choice it's about ideology and beliefs so I assume that many vegans are ok with bland food because of that which is commendable.
So I've been vegan for 11 years. It is really easy to get healthy and tasty vegan food... especially in Bristol. Bristol is like the vegan Mecca! I am not sure how many of the above comments were people trolling or how many were genuine but yeah - my point is it's really easy to get healthy, tasty vegan food. I think the comment about struggling with boring unhealthy food was sadly either someone trolling or someone who was simply doing it wrong!
Maybe some vegans come across as holier than thou but also a lot of veggies and meat eaters come across as very defensive and act like dicks towards vegans sometimes! I do not see my veganism as either an "i am better than you" thing or that I am denying myself anything. I do not want to eat animal products no matter what shape or form they are in as I do not see animal "ingredients" as food. That's not meant as a rant just to explain that vegans are not sitting at home eating lentils secretly wanting a beef burger!
Ffor people who want help going vegan there is this service which helps people with what food to buy, nutrition, recipes etc. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bristol-Vegan-Buddies/12...ef=hl
Hope that didn't sound to holier than thou... I am a atheist as it goes!
Flavour, taste, enjoyment ?
These are the arguments you are using ?
EATING DEAD FLESH IS WRONG
There are no other discussions
Saying the range of vegan food is to blame for blandness is rediculous in my opinion. The vast majority of meat eaters have a very limited diet. The meat the eat will be just chicken, beef, pork and maybe fish (probably just cod and tuna and maybe haddock) Few would consider or be able to afford anyting else.
They will eat this with the standard range of veg, potatoes, rice etc. This may not be anything do do with not being willing to try different tastes (though it would be true for a lot) but purely economic for most, meat is expensive!
Being veggy/vegan has encouraged me to eat food I had not previously tried plus save a bit of money so I could buy them. As a result I would say the number of foods I eat is far greater than your average meat eater.
Are you serious in sending people to Facebook for info ? Might as well just send your info straight to the FBI
Regrtfully we are seeing here the usual problem with vegans, their complete inability to understand that the majority of people find their diet boring.
Some empathy on both sides would be good.
hey - so just in response - yeah obviously facebook is going to be used alot by the cops but who cares - i am sure they spy on ppl in all maner of ways but i don't think it means we should not use face book for promoting veganism. By the same logic you would not use your phone to phone your parents for a chat because the filth bug peoples phones!
Ily said -
"Regrtfully we are seeing here the usual problem with vegans, their complete inability to understand that the majority of people find their diet boring.
Some empathy on both sides would be good."
Every time you eat somthing that hasn't got a animal products in it you are bored? You never eat fruit? chips? veg curry? veg stir fry? Maybe people who find a vegan diet boring are doing it wrong?
A typical vegan will eat a very varied diet of dishes from all over the world. If you spend a few minutes on the net ( if your not scared of the police monitoring your internet use/have your tin foil hat on ) you can find millions of vegan recipes,stuff on nutrition, were to eat...allsorts . There are even vegan body builders! ok i am sure they are vain wierdos just like all the other body builders but it goes to show that you can be vegan and build lots of muscle/ be very healthy. If anyone is interested you can download a vegan beginners guide here http://www.bristolanimalrights.org.uk/ .
Hope that didn't sound to ranty i'm just replying to,what i see as, inaccuracies.
Insensitive people that cannot feel for any creature are one reason why this world is in such a mess right now
Great to see events like this being organised, thank you. I hope these screenings are as successful and popular as the previous screenings you have held.
Veganism as a diet and lifestyle choice is healthy providing individuals ensure they replace the vitamins and minerals that are not found in a vegan diet however it is VERY IMPORTANT that said diet is not followed by pre-pubescent girls and pregnant women.
To ensure full and correct development of the female sexual organs it is vital that young women follow a conventional varied diet that does include some animal products, a vegan diet will not provide this and supplements are inconsistent in their effectiveness. If veganism is followed by pre-pubescent girls it has been shown to lead to a delay in the beginning of menstruation and can lead to Amenorrhea or Polycystic ovarian syndrome.
Furthermore for pregnant women a vegan diet noticeably increases the development of the CYP2J2, enzyme, which when overexpressed in affected females is a contributory factor to the development of preeclampsia.
For men there are few problems with veganism however most doctors will advise against veganism until boys have completed the process of puberty and are fully developed. In adult males veganism has shown to produce a boost in sperm levels and is reccomended for those men with a low sperm count seeking to be fathers.
A varied and sensible vegan diet is the best start you can give any child, through pregnancy, infancy and adolescence. Of course you can be an unhealthy vegan, just like you can be an unhealthy corpse cruncher, but if you are mindful of what you eat and choose a good range of plant-based foods, including lots of fruit and veg (preferably organic) you'll get the best possible range of essential nutrients and minerals. Vegan sources of key nutrients tend to be more beneficial and come without the harmful extras of meat and dairy (excessive calories, cholesterol, steroids, antibiotics etc). Please see the following pages for more info:
Vegan Society info on parenting: http://www.vegansociety.com/lifestyle/parenting/
Viva! Health guides: http://www.vegetarian.org.uk/guides/index.html
Iron: http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/iron.php
More on Iron: http://www.care2.com/greenliving/12-top-vegan-iron-sour....html
Calcium: http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/calcium.php
Yeah right, everybody should be grateful for all that junk and crap chemicals laden meat and food capitalists sell which makes us sick and them rich!!!
To 'A healthy long-term vegan'.
There are a number of very serious medical issues at stake here and I would request you do not provide medical advice when you are not qualified to do so. To quote the Vegan Society is a mistake and their publications have received extensive criticism
The 2007 research by Dr Kurt Baerlocher in Switzerland, authored by Esther Camenzind-Frey probably the most extensive study ever concerning the effects of a vegan diet on pregnant women concluded,
"Therefore, a vegan diet is not recommended for the population in general, and in particular not for children and other vulnerable groups such as pregnant women and elderly people."
An earlier German study reported in the "Deutsche Gesellschaft für Ernährung,
"The strict vegetarian/vegan diet is not recommended for any age group because of the risks. The DGE warns against it especially for infants, children and young people."
You are missing the point, the doctor agreed with you our diet is healthy however he/she was pointing out that it is not advised for teenagers and pregnant women. This seems like reasonable advice, I think we all understand our choice of diet is not perfect for humans but is a choice based on a love for fellow animals.
There may well be some pregnant women who decide for ethical reasons that the risks to their unborn child is worth it to ensure an animal is not harmed however it is reasonable they have the information to make an informed choice wouldn't you say ? Children under the age of 16 are the responsibility of their parents who I would say have a duty to ensure they receive an appropriate diet that on the one hand avoids junk food but on the other is not a vegan diet that could harm their development.
How incredible that that you know what qualifications I may or may not have without even knowing who I am! ;-)
You can generally find a report telling you pretty much whatever you want to hear if you look hard enough. Unfortunately I stopped learning German at A level, so I can't read Dr Kurt Baerlocher's report.
There are a lot of vested interests in the meat and dairy industries, so it doesn't surprise me that some countries don't advocate a vegan diet, yet even the American Dietetic Association considers well-planned vegan diets "appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy and lactation."
The Vegan Society provide valuable information on nutrition and where to get nutrients that vegans may need to give more thought to, such as vitamin B12. But seeing as so many products are fortified with B vitamins and calcium etc it's not a huge issue anyway.
Right now there is a study being undertaken by the Indian Council for Medical Research to understand why their vegetarian population lives on average shorter lives by around nine years compared to those who eat meat. India is an excellent country to be doing this research because their population includes very large numbers of Vegans, Vegetarians, and those who follow a conventional diet.
The initial findings indicate that meat consumption become more important in later life because of the way that the body absorbs it. Vegan bodies tend to be very high in copper. This may not seem to be important, but it is critically important today when most people are already extremely toxic with copper. In addition those following a Vegan diet are often low in zinc. This is also a very serious and almost universal nutritional imbalance already, and vegan diets tend to make it much worse. The main foods that contain zinc are meats.
Another issue is that individuals who have followed a Vegan diet for more than three years are very low in the essential sulfur-bearing amino acids such as taurine, cysteine, carnitine and methionine. This is a very serious problem with vegetarian and vegan diets, perhaps one of the worst. These amino acids are essential for liver detoxification of the heavy metals and of all toxic chemicals as well. No matter how clean the diet, without them the body cannot remove toxins as well, and this shortens the lifespan in all cases.
The full study is expected to report in late 2014.
I am commenting here in a private capacity although for the record I am a Paediatric Nurse at Bristol Royal Hospital for Children.
The advice that a Vegan or Vegetarian diet for teenage girls is safe is wrong and I would recommend the comment is removed. There is extensive research and most clinical professionals will state that the rise in the popularity of vegetarianism among young girls is already leading to many problems with sexual development.
The adolescent female body will not properly develop on a vegetarian diet never mind a vegan one. These diets are fine when the women is older but it is now thought until she has experienced at least three years of regular menstrual cycle. Comparisons are often made with Asian countries where vegetarian diets are common however there are extensive differences in the bodies between Asian and European women .
Please may I request the comment in question is hidden, Thank You.
"How incredible that that you know what qualifications I may or may not have without even knowing who I am:"
It is obvious you do not have qualifications or experience in this field outside of the (biased) advice from the Vegan society because of the statements you have made. Nobody with a medical qualification would encourage people to do what you have done.
I would suggest you use something like Google Translator to enable you to read the report. Its findings are very important however I suspect you are the sort of person who only reads pieces that reinforce your viewpoint.
This is a matter of children's health please do not make statements that are unfounded.
@Judith, I have checked through the comments to see where reference is made to teenage girls. The only one I can find suggestst that a vegan diet is UNSAFE for teenage girls - which is exactly what you are saying also, right? Perhaps you misread the comment?
I am happy to hide comments which are misleading, but I don't think there is any such problem here.
I'm interested in reading about the extensive research which means that "most clinical professionals will state that the rise in the popularity of vegetarianism among young girls is already leading to many problems with sexual development"
Some links please.
When you lifted that quote from Wikipedia, why didn't you lift the link as well?
You might think that we should believe an anonymous person on the internet if they say they are a doctor (and for anyone who does believe you I have $25 million that I will pay into their account once they send me their details) but some of us like to look at the research quoted for ourselves.
To help you out Doctor, here is the link you forgot to cite:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism
The quote you lifted is to be found in footnote 48.
The comment I was referring to was that made by 'long term vegan" titled "Nonsense" date and time Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:26 where the person said,
"A varied and sensible vegan diet is the best start you can give any child, through pregnancy, infancy and adolescence."
This information is untrue, dangerous and may even leave you open to criminal charges (although that is very unlikely), I do not think this site should be used to provide inaccurate medical advice from unqualified individuals.
I support the open publishing concept but do I feel this is a post that requires moderating. Your Editorial Guidelines have a section that talks about 'inaccuracy'
I am amazed that on BINDY we are seriously discussing Veganism against a background of human health verses animal health.
Why should an animal die to improve the diet of a human ?
Why is a human life worth more than say a cow or a lamb ?
Why is the sexual development of a girl in Britain weighed as more important than a young lamb wrenched from its mother and killed so we can eat its dead decaying flesh ?
Humans are no more entitled to 'health' than any other animal on the planet.
Until all are free.
The posts here bring up an interesting point in the 'is Vegetarianism and Veganism healthy" debate. On one side we have information quoted from the Veganism Society, a group we can assume will give Veganism a positive spin compared to quoted medical research conducted by doctors that I assume none of us know.
When I was pregnant I was advised not to continue with a Vegan diet, advice I followed and I never went back to full Veganism preferring now to live as a Vegetarian. My doctor was very clear - Veganism is a threat to the unborn child and when I raised this with a neighbour who is a nurse she too was adamant on the subject.
Is the advice that the Vegan Society is giving out really dangerous or are doctors wrong ?
I honestly don't know however when faced with a doctor saying in effect 'don't do that it will harm your baby I'm inclined to do it.'. I'm looking forward to seeing the results of the Indian survey listed above.
In fact I took the quote from an online medical research portal that is part of the MRC.
https://portal.mrc.ac.uk/portal/server.pt
This is used by medical professionals throughout the world to reference peer reviewed papers on a number of research subjects.
The fact that you get your 'facts' from Wikipedia is somewhat troubling when we are discussing medical matters. German researches found, not surprisingly, that Wikipedia,
“…failed to meet relevant criteria, and key information such as the presentation of probabilities of success on patient-relevant outcomes, probabilities of unwanted effects, and unbiased risk communication was missing. On average items related to the objectives of interventions, the natural course of disease and treatment options were only rated as “partially fulfilled”. (..) In addition, the Wikipedia information tended to achieve lower comprehensibility. In conclusion(..) Wikipedia (..) does not meet important criteria of evidence-based patient and consumer information ”
I appreciate at certain times in a child's development it may be necessary to concentrate on certain nutrients etc, but I hardly think that is an argument against veganism! Most of the health problems in developed countries can be positively affected by a healthy vegan diet. There are strong scientific links to show meat and dairy consumption attributes to heart disease, cancer, obesity, diabetes and strokes among other maladies. Read The China Study, watch Forks over Knives, or one of the many documentaries on plant-based diets.
I've never got on too well with google translate, but I will happily read any scientific studies you can provide links for.
Could you provide some links to peer reviewed papers & studies that support your argument?
Simon Fairlie's explosive new book, Meat: A Benign Extravagance, argues that a more subtle approach to the environmental impact of eating meat is needed, taking full account of how livestock can be constructively integrated into agricultural systems
Meat - A Benign Extravagance?
For about 10 years I lived in a community which (since the comments I make here can apply to other similar permaculture settlements) I don't need to name and will call Happy Valley. There were many things I liked about the place, but one of the aspects that I found difficult was the collective diet. There was no prohibition on eating meat; but since communal meals had to provide for the common denominator of collective acceptability, a vegetarian ethos prevailed. If you were on kitchen duty, it was more convenient to cook without using any animal products, because then you didn't have to prepare anything special for vegans.
Food Miles & Self-Sufficiency
Initially I agreed with this policy, because meat is environmentally extravagant, but over time I found this approach problematic, both at consumption level and at production level. On the one hand, Happy Valley, although it aspired towards self-sufficiency, was spending about £200 per fortnight on pallet-loads of food imported from the four corners of the world, notably China, Turkey, India, Brazil and the USA. Most of this food was either high fat or high protein: olive oil, sunflower oil, margarine, peanut butter, tahini, soya milk and yoghurt, nuts, chick peas, beans, lentils, molasses, dried fruit, rice, quinoa etc.
On the other hand the production of animal products on site was marginalised, a matter that I was sensitive to since I was the main stockman. Certainly the milk, cheese and yoghurt produced were eaten, and we also sold cheese. But whereas the vegetable garden was a collective responsibility, towards which every-one was expected to contribute on communal work days, the grassland management and animal rearing were viewed as a voluntary option – even though there were some 4.86 hectares (12 acres) of grass to look after, compared to less than an acre of arable horticulture. Moreover, although the grass and dairy oper-ation produced perhaps 350 kilos of meat, dripping and lard a year (through the calves, and the whey fed to the pigs) this was shunned by the communal kitchen, and had to be sold on the open market – a procedure that was halted when Environmental Health cottoned on and insisted on premises built to a standard that was completely uneconomical for a subsistence community.
In short, Happy Valley was producing, from the grass that we all walked on, a substantial proportion of the protein and fat that we required for our nutrition, but we weren't eating it and instead were import-ing it from countries where people go hungry.
An Enquiry into Eating Meat
This wasn't the main reason why, around 2004, I left Happy Valley, but it was a contributory reason, and when I left I decided to spend some time trying to reconcile my misgivings about the community's mainly vegetarian diet with the very cogent arguments that vegans and others were propagating concerning the environmental impact of meat. In 1813 Percy Shelley became a vegan because, in his words: "The quantity of nutritious vegetable matter consumed in fattening the carcase of an ox, would afford ten times the sustenance... if gathered immediately from the bosom of the earth".
Two centuries later, 700 million tonnes of human edible food are poured down the gullets of livestock every year to provide a luxury commodity for the wealthy, while around a billion people in the world do not have enough to eat. The Gandhian response, of rejecting such a tainted product, is understandable; yet the net result – importing protein and fat from third world countries – has perverse repercussions.
What began as a personal enquiry in 2004, grew into a research project, and has ended up as a book, published under the title Meat – A Benign Extravagance. The principal conflict I set out to address I have resolved to my satisfaction.
Default Livestock: A Way of Farming
Every agricultural ecosystem produces a certain amount of surplus, waste and otherwise hard-to-use biomass which in many cases is best kept in the food chain by feeding to livestock. The meat or dairy produce which results from cycling biomass in this fashion is 'free' in the sense that it has little or no environmental impact beyond that which is engendered by an ecosystem dedicated primarily to the production of vegetable food.
I have adopted a term used by the UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) for this traditional approach to animal rearing – 'default livestock' – but it could equally be referred to as 'permaculture livestock', because the animals, the meat and dairy produce are all playing a subsidiary role in a balanced ecosystem. By contrast, the dedicated production of meat achieved by feeding grain or other biomass 'efficiently' to large concentrations of animals overrides sustainable agricultural systems, and introduces perverse effects such as the concen-tration of excessive amounts of manure in one place, greater risk of disease, and the accumulation of biomass by the wealthy at the expense of the poor and landless. A 'default' or 'permaculture' meat diet (depending on where one lived) might provide perhaps a quarter or a third of the quantity of animal protein currently enjoyed in the over-developed countries.
Animals & Global Warming
When I began writing the book the methane and carbon emissions of live-stock, although recognised, were not viewed as unduly significant. But in the last few years, the global warming impact of meat has assumed a much higher profile, largely thanks to a much publicised announcement by the FAO in their 2006 report 'Livestock's Long Shadow' that farm animals are responsible for 18 per cent of all human generated global warming.
The most interesting thing about this statistic is not the figure itself – criteria and numbers can be juggled so that almost any result can be defended – but the fact that a United Nations organisation ostensibly committed to the support of farmers worldwide should choose to promote such an elevated figure, and announce publicly that 'the livestock sector generates more greenhouse gas than transport'. The authors use it, not (as one might expect) to argue for a reduction in meat consumption, but instead for a doubling of meat consumption through intensive agriculture and factory farms.
Their secondary argument is that 'by far the largest share of emissions come from more extensive systems where poor livestock holders often extract marginal livelihoods from dwindling resources'. 'Livestock's Long Shadow' goes out of its way to stigmatise peasant farmers rearing default livestock whose carbon emissions are far lower than ours in the developed countries, and advocates that they move into the intensive, globalised meat economy which we know to be heavily dependent on fossil fuels.
Needless to say, this is not an agenda that I support (and indeed it met with considerable opposition within the FAO itself). I am also sceptical about the elevated figure of 18 per cent. The lack of scientific knowledge about the methane and nitrous oxide cycles, the fact that methane has remained stable in the world's atmosphere for the last ten years and a number of other factors, lead me to conclude that the global warming case against livestock is not as strong as many would like to make out.
Land Use
In my view the strongest case against livestock, and for a move towards a more vegan diet in the UK, is the argument that the large areas of grassland currently devoted to sheep and cows could be dedicated to other uses; in particular tree planting, bio-fuel production or wildlife. To some extent this is an 'aesthetic' matter, a question of personal preference. In a world increasingly reliant on renewable energy, any decisions we make about how land is used will inevitably be grounded in personal and political preferences: do we value our meat more than our mobility, or our warmth above our wildlife?
I tend to agree that for a variety of historic reasons there has been too much emphasis in the uplands on sheep, which require large areas of land to produce not very much food. But we need to recognise that the roles that animals play in a fossil-fuel-free environment go beyond the mere provision of meat and milk – in fact food is often just a by-product.
Livestock provide the biodiversity that trees on their own cannot provide. They are the best means we have of keeping wide areas clear and open to solar energy and wind energy. They harness biomass that would otherwise be inaccessible, and recycle waste that would otherwise be a disposal problem. And they are the main means we have of ensuring that the phosphate which leaks out from our arable land into the wider environment, and that is crucial for agricultural yields, is brought back into the food chain.
Striking a Balance
In short, livestock have a role to play in nature just like plants and minerals, and therefore they have a role in a well-balanced permaculture system. That role should not be exaggerated, otherwise the system will become un-balanced, but equally it will become unbalanced if you don't use it. There will always be a certain amount of animal produce, essential to the well-being of an agricultural economy, that it would be foolish to disdain, because if you do, as I found at Happy Valley, you may end up having to import a shortfall unsustainably from elsewhere
Simon Fairlie worked for 20 years variously as an agricultural labourer, vine-worker, shepherd, fisherman, builder and stonemason before being ensnared by the computer in 1990. He was a co-editor of The Ecologist magazine for four years, before joining a community farm in 1994 where he managed the cows, pigs and a working horse for ten years. He now runs Chapter 7, an organisation that provides planning advice to small-holders and other low income people in the countryside. He is also editor of The Land magazine, and earns a living by selling scythes.
I can find no reference to this research that you claim is being done by the "Indian Council for Medical Research", so please could you provide the links.
I reckon this thread us being trolled.
First comment is a suggestion that afterwards you attend the nearby Trullo Restuarant. Which IS also in St. Paul's Road - only this St. Paul's Road is in London - and you won't find Rib Eye Steak on the sample menus.
I wouldn't be rushing to moderate on behalf of Nurse Judith either, unless she emails the list. Because 'she' is probably a troll trying to censor the debate
I know a number of women who have been vegan since birth and none of them have had any problems with development!
It is worth noting that the doctor provides clear links to peer revised medical papers and supporters of veganism provide links to the Vegan Society and Wikipedia.
I wonder which is the more reliable ?
'Doctor' wrote at 17:49
"The fact that you get your 'facts' from Wikipedia is somewhat troubling when we are discussing medical matters."
I don't - I just googled your quote and found it there. We can take it that its the only unfavourable review that has been found. There are plenty which say that a sensible vegan or vegetarian diet is quite healthy, and a planned vegan diet may be better for kids than many of the meals dished out by corpse devouring parents.
Of course we can't check your portal, but as a 'Doctor' who doesn't think we should trust Wikipedia you surely don't accept us to take advice from an unnamed anonymous 'Doctor' on an open publishing site? Especially when we know that you're posting on a thread which is being trolled.
"German researches found, not surprisingly, that Wikipedia,"
Oh my - the exact wording from here - including the breaks in the quotation that follows!: http://laikaspoetnik.wordpress.com/2009/09/14/the-troub...tion/
Surely you could have provided the link, seeing as you have time to scour Indymedia whilst caring for your patients and spending your fat salary?
If you've still got time on your hands, and seeing as Judith seems to have gone quiet on us, maybe you can indulge us further.
'She' states:
"There is extensive research and most clinical professionals will state that the rise in the popularity of vegetarianism among young girls is already leading to many problems with sexual development. "
Do you agree with 'her' 'Doctor'? And if so, can you point us at the research please?
Thanks in advance :-D
My mum was vegan and her mum was a vegetarian, my mum had three girls and one male, and her mum three, two boys, one girl, all are very well and happy, and still going strong, and not one of them could be called obese, or anything like.
Also, we never ate food out of supermarkets, always fresh everything, mum also baked her own bread, just saying.
Nick: "It is worth noting that the doctor provides clear links to peer revised medical papers"
Really?
The only link I could find was to a MRC portal that he claimed provided access to peer reviewed papers. That portal requires a log-in, and can be found via google eg: "doctor research portal uk"
I managed to find where he got his wikipedia quote from.
If I missed his links to "peer revised medical papers", please repost them. Thanks!
Yes I must agree, the Vegans here do seem very defensive when presented with proper science. As has been said many times before........
Vegan - one part cult, one part eating disorder.
It's not trolling to present an alternative viewpoint based on personnel expertise and scientific papers.
Vegan defenders here are looking very much on the back foot when they start to claim trolling because they are presented with evidence that their beliefs may be wrong.
1. Meat is very high in fat, especially saturated fat
There are numerous claims today about saturated fat. Some claim that we do not need any saturated fat to survive, or that all saturated fat is bad, while others tell us to eat freely and that this substance is essential for our health.While not all saturated fat is bad, saturated fat from animal products like meat appears to directly affect the function of our cardiovascular system in many negative ways. Not only is it linked to putting a strain on one’s heart through possible fat deposits in the arteries, increasing one’s blood pressure and causing artery damage, but it is the major fat responsible for dangerous weight gain. Today’s meat is even higher than ever in fat because of how the animals are raised, with no exercise or natural grazing capabilities. Hence they sit in a cage and are over fed, which leads to higher than normal unhealthy fat deposits.
2. Meat is very high in cholesterol
Most animals produce their own cholesterol and there is no need to be eating someone else’s, especially given the fact that your body is great at regulating its own cholesterol when we don’t throw in extra cholesterol from foreign sources. Cholesterol production can also increase in times of stress and decreased activity, both which are real problems for the animals of today.
3. Meat is very dense in calories
Since meat contains so much fat, and fat is the most calorie-dense nutrient, it is a substance that if eaten regularly or in excess can easily lead to weight gain.
4. Meat produces carcinogenic compounds when cooked
These are called heterocyclic amines and they get produced when animal flesh is cooked, especially at high temperatures. HCAs form when amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) and creatine (a chemical found in muscles) react at high cooking temperatures. Researchers have identified 17 different HCAs resulting from the cooking of muscle meats such as beef, pork, fowl, and fish.
5. Meat increases chances of colon cancer
Aside from the heterocyclic amines talked about above, meat does not clear from the intestines fast, unless ample fiber is included in each meal. This is mainly due to the fact that meat is high in protein and protein takes a very long time to get fully digested, thus it sits in our intestines the longest. This time factor, allows any carcinogenic compounds to do the most damage to the lining of the intestinal walls.
6. Meat is hard on the digestive system
Besides the increased chances of colon cancer, meat can cause a lot of digestive disturbances for the very same reasons. Meat takes a long time to pass through the intestines, where during this time it putrefies. Putrefaction produces toxins and amines that accumulate in the liver, kidneys and large intestines, destroys bacterial cultures and causes degeneration of the lining of the small intestine. Over a few years of a regular meat diet, putrefied meat is going to adhere to the lining of your intestines, where it often causes various digestive problems such as IBS, stomach cramps, prolapsed colons, haemorrhoids, constipation and many other problems that are not even directly linked to the intestines.
7. Meat carries the highest risk of bacterial contamination
Meat is animal flesh, and animal flesh is most prone to bacterial growth. This process is increased even more after the meat has been killed, as it starts to putrefy right away. Today, we do have many advances to decrease this process as much as possible, mainly refrigeration, but the most common food-borne illnesses still come from meats.
8. Meat increases chances of autoimmune diseases
Due to the fact that some animal proteins are very closely related to ours, the body responds to a lot of these as foreign particles and tries to destroy them. (Not very different from how some organ transplants get rejected.) When the body does this on a regular basis, after some time it begins to turn on itself due to some auto-immune processes that end up resulting in things like arthritis, lupus, multiple sclerosis and others.
9. Meat contains synthetic hormones, which disturb our hormonal balance
Unless the meat comes from an organic farm, most farms today inject the animals with various hormones for no other reasons than to speed up and enhance the animal’s growth. The faster the animal grows, the faster the monetary return and the bigger it grows obviously the more meat can be obtained for less money. Most of the hormones are various growth hormones, which not only disrupt our own hormonal balances, which can lead to many different health conditions, but also have been theorized for the faster than normal onset of puberty and development of our children today.
10. Meat contains various drugs
Due to the fact that every animal translates to dollars, most if not all animals are regularly subjected to various drugs, mostly antibiotics. These drugs do not magically vanish and researchers are studying these effects of them on our bodies. However, what we do know for sure today is that it has contributed to the current antibiotic resistance, where the antibiotics that we may need at a point in our lives, no longer work because the bacteria have gotten so much experience with them in small doses to mutate against them.
11. Meat contains its own diseases
As well as each animal and farm is controlled for safety, regulations are nowhere as close as we would like them to be. Even though it is easy to catch an infectious disease in an animal and then treat it appropriately, other chronic diseases are not as easily caught. In fact, think of how healthy an animal can be, that sits all of its short life in a tiny cage, where some cannot even properly stand up, let alone walk around and get some exercise.
12. Meat eating results in killing billions of animal each year
According to ADAPTT, 140 billion animals are killed each year by the meat, egg and dairy industries. That is a mind blowing number that most people are completely not aware of and most of this is simply due to the fact that today we eat a diet in the developed world that is way too highly animal based.
13. Meat production leads to wasted natural resources like water and land
Having seen the above number, now imagine how much water is wasted each year to grow the food to feed these animals and how much water is wasted to keep them hydrated while they are growing. In order for land to be made suitable for animal production, land must be properly cleared and this usually involves the chopping and clearing of many trees. Livestock production accounts for 30% of the entire land surface of the planet. Just think of how many people can be fed in the world and have clean drinking water, if it wasn’t all going to the billions of animals.
14.Meat production is heavily responsible for climate change
Animals produce natural gas, mainly methane. Methane is a very potent greenhouse gas, in that it traps heat even more readily and abundantly than carbon dioxide. In fact animal production is responsible for about 18% of the world’s climate change and to put that in perspective that is even more than all of the world’s transportation. (Source: United Nations)
15. Meat raised under stressful conditions has a negatively altered biochemistry, that negatively alters ours
Just think about yourself and what happens to you in times of stress. The number one thing that happens to all animals under stress is an elevation of stress hormones, which initialize a whole slew of other biochemical reactions that lead away from an animal’s healthy balanced state. This of course leads to various diseases. When we consume this meat, whether you embrace the Eastern views of karma, qi energy changes and thus chakra disruptions or not, eating meat from stressed animals has been shown to be linked to various negative mental and emotional states of being in us as well.
So perhaps it will be for your health, perhaps for the environment, or perhaps for the animals that you give this topic some serious consideration if you are currently consuming meat. Whatever your choice or actions are today or tomorrow, my hope is simply this, that each of us starts taking accountability for our own personal health and starts being the change that we want to see on this Earth.
So, a thread appears on Indymedia urging people to 'vegucate' themselves.
First comment suggests that they go to a nearby restuarant afterwards for a steak. Link provided shows that the restuarant is not in Bristol, but in London.
Second comment says vegetarian/vegan food tastes awful. No link
Third comment from an ex-vegan says veganism is bad for babies. No link provided.
Its standard fare for Indymedia trolling - put up an article and you'll get comments attacking your post. It does put people off posting to Indymedia, which is presumably the plan.
Now at the end of the thread we're learning that vegans can't face the "proper science" and the "scientific papers" but if you read the thread - no links have been posted to any peer reviewed research, except for a link to a portal that requires a log-in. The 'Doctor' claims he got his quotes from there - rather than footnote 48 of the Veganism article on Wikipedia and then has a go at me for getting my medical info from Wikipedia. He then provides a quote about "German researches" making exactly the same spelling mistake that is made in the blog hie took it from "Laika's MedLibLog"
So Nick claims: It is worth noting that the doctor provides clear links to peer revised medical papers
and Sue says: "Yes I must agree, the Vegans here do seem very defensive when presented with proper science"
and
Troll Catcher says: "It's not trolling to present an alternative viewpoint based on personnel expertise and scientific papers."
But there is still not one link to a peer reviewed paper that backs up claims such as:
"Veganism as a diet and lifestyle choice is healthy providing individuals ensure they replace the vitamins and minerals that are not found in a vegan diet however it is VERY IMPORTANT that said diet is not followed by pre-pubescent girls and pregnant women."
"If veganism is followed by pre-pubescent girls it has been shown to lead to a delay in the beginning of menstruation and can lead to Amenorrhea or Polycystic ovarian syndrome. "
Try googling veganism and "Polycystic ovarian syndrome" and see if you can find a report that backs up the 'doctor'!
Fortunately for him, Nurse Judith is on hand to back him up. 'She' tells us that "There is extensive research and most clinical.
professionals will state that the rise in the popularity of vegetarianism among young girls is already leading to many problems with sexual development. "
but like the good 'Doctor' she provides no links.
She goes on to tell us that "Comparisons are often made with Asian countries where vegetarian diets are common however there are extensive differences in the bodies between Asian and European women"
Second use of the word extensive and one shudders to think what these differences in the bodies of European and Asian women might be. Fortunately 'Nurse Judith' provides no links to enable us to find out.....
Lets not forget our 'Interested Bystander' who lets us know about a " a study being undertaken by the Indian Council for Medical Research to understand why their vegetarian population lives on average shorter lives by around nine years compared to those who eat meat."
Although the bystander tells us that the results won't be known until 2014, s/he provides no links to read more or even establish if there really is such a study, or if vegetarianism really does take 9 years of an Indian woman's life.
It is the pro-vegan/vegetarianism posters who provide links which can be checked, yet somehow Nick, Sue and Troll Catcher are blinded by the "real science" and "scientific papers" which are not linked to.
Its almost as if a troll with numerous sock puppets is repeating the same memes several times in the hope they will stick.
I am not expecting any response to my observations to provide links that prove vegan mothers put their children at risk, or veganism affects girls sexual development and causes "Amenorrhea or Polycystic ovarian syndrome" because if 'they' could have provided them by now, 'they' would have.
So probably more claims that real science HAS been provided and that vegans are just ignoring it is what we can expect.
I will donate £20 to the charity of your choice if you can identify the links to the "proper science" and "scientific papers" that have so impressed Nick, Sue and Troll Catcher and which back up the claims outlined above- as long as they appear within one of the first 42 comments on this thread and not to a portal that requires a log-in.
Never quite got the whole vegan thing, but most vegans I've met do have that look and attitude of a religious convert.
Millions of years of evolution have developed the human body to eat both meat and plant food so why not continue with that. It's not like cows or sheep are going to be roaming free if we stop eating them.
This thread is of particular interest to me because my partner and I discussed this in detail between us both and with our doctor when she became pregnant last year. We are both Vegans and we had not thought about the risks involved with being Vegans until our doctor raised it. She was 100% adamant, do not follow a vegan diet when pregnant. We were both initially shocked but she gave us a lot of information that was helpful, with leaflets from the NHS that talked about the difficulties of getting enough protein on a Vegan diet in particular.
I've no idea if living as a vegan is healthy or not ( I did it for environmental reasons) but it seems a good idea not to take chances. My partner decided not to continue as a vegan after the birth and although I am vegan at work I am vegetarian at home as she does most of the cooking.
I would encourage everybody to become Vegan because the help this gives to our planet is obvious but to be sensible when going through periods like pregnancy and taking a break from a Vegan diet at that time.
People here are calling for links to medical papers but the doctor above provided two at the start of this thread when she said,
.
"The 2007 research by Dr Kurt Baerlocher in Switzerland, authored by Esther Camenzind-Frey probably the most extensive study ever concerning the effects of a vegan diet on pregnant women concluded,
"Therefore, a vegan diet is not recommended for the population in general, and in particular not for children and other vulnerable groups such as pregnant women and elderly people."
An earlier German study reported in the "Deutsche Gesellschaft für Ernährung,
"The strict vegetarian/vegan diet is not recommended for any age group because of the risks. The DGE warns against it especially for infants, children and young people."
. both of these are real peer reviewed scientific papers not advice leaflets from the Vegan Society which is what others are talking about.
I found both of them with a simple Yahoo search so I'm surprised other people could not do so
http://www.bag.admin.ch/themen/ernaehrung_bewegung/0520...ahre=
http://www.dge.de/
http://www.dge.de/modules.php?name=News&file=article&si...=1201
Please send your donation to the Bristol Diabetic Support Group
http://www.diabetesbristol.org.uk/
'fact checker' . thanks for that. Very interesting.
I just read the report.
"I found both of them with a simple Yahoo search so I'm surprised other people could not do so"
Firstly you had to go look for them (so they weren't provided) and DESPITE the fact I told you they were at footnote 48 of the Veganism article on Wikipedia, you managed to came up with the wrong links.
The second is wrong because all it does is point at the website for the DGE, (a German language website) but the article quoted is not there.
The first is wrong because it takes us to to a 2005 study called "Fifth Swiss Report of Nutrition: Summaries"
The first quote is in fact from a 2006 study which was published in 2007, and its a PDF in German: http://tinyurl.com/apfz7au
Here is an English summary of it - as you will see, it is called: Health advantages and disadvantages of a vegetarian diet: http://tinyurl.com/aeervpq
I found that by going to the Wikipedia article, opening the PDF and then Googling the German title.
The second article can be viewed here: http://tinyurl.com/a57efbl
And a google translation here: http://tinyurl.com/ajd3tho
The google translation mangles the conclusion so that it reads:
"Conclusion of the DGE: The strict vegetarian / vegan diet is recommended because of its risks for any age group. The DGE recommends especially urgent for babies, children and young people on it. "
which appears to be an inversion of the quote the good 'Doctor' provided' and that study does not appear on the www.dge.de front page which you quoted.
So, you tried to track down the links and failed.
Yet somehow 'Nick', 'Sue' and 'Troll Finder' found themselves blinded by the science that wasn't there.
And no money will be paid to a charity for 2 useless links.
So thanks for trying and proving the point. I say again that the most obvious explanation is that the troll posing as a medically qualified Doctor simply lifted them from the Wikipedia article.
Link to report.
author by Can use Google Translaterpublication date Thu Jan 10, 2013 07:40Report this post to the editors
http://www.dge.de/modules.php?name=News&file=article&si...=1201
And that article is called: First unified recommendations for nutrition during pregnancy
http://tinyurl.com/byjhe2j
It is not by the same authors, nor is the same paper as the quoted one which is:
Is a Vegetarian Diet Appropriate for Children?
And the post supposedly by me
Donation on its way
author by Not a Doctorpublication date Thu Jan 10, 2013 08:43
is not by me.
I won't be paying for links that go to unrelated articles.
I doubt the troll claiming they will pay the £20 will do so
"A purely vegan diet, however, can not ensure adequate nutrition during pregnancy, even with careful food selection. (It) carries serious health risks - particularly the development of the child's nervous system."
Seems pretty conclusive to me
Hey 'Not a Doctor' keep your word and pay up man. You asked people to provide a link, the 'Doctor' gave you the name of articles and another poster provided you with links to the articles. You yourself even provided links to the articles.
The articles and the advice for pregnant women not to follow a vegan diet is clearly there on a real, on-line, public record, peer reviewed, industry accepted format on a recognised medical site.
Pay the man. The Bristol Diabetic people deserve your money.
"A purely vegan diet, however, can not ensure adequate nutrition during pregnancy, even with careful food selection. She carries serious health risks - particularly the development of the child's nervous system. Critical including the supply of protein, iron, calcium, iodine, zinc, vitamin B 12 and vitamin D. Such a diet requires therefore always a special medical advice and the use of micronutrient supplements."
Ref: http://www.dge.de/modules.php?name=News&file=article&si...=1201
It would be good if we could get back to the point of this thread rather than following a distraction of who said what and which links lead where.
The clear fact is that a major European medical organisation after research finds that a vegan diet is not suitable for pregnant women. Considering that the Vegan Society says the opposite I think that's important as presumably most new vegan women will be getting their advice form a source that is not accurate and is providing advice that could hurt an unborn child.
I have emailed the Vegan society today to ask for their comment, I will post it here when I receive a reply.
The troll masquerading under the name of Christina Penelope - gives a cut and paste bit of biased grey literature above that is pure spin.
In particular:-
"7. Meat carries the highest risk of bacterial contamination
Meat is animal flesh, and animal flesh is most prone to bacterial growth. This process is increased even more after the meat has been killed, as it starts to putrefy right away. Today, we do have many advances to decrease this process as much as possible, mainly refrigeration, but the most common food-borne illnesses still come from meats."
Meats stored incorrectly maybe!
But see how Lady Penelope conveniently ignores the fact that unwashed vegetables can also be a huge source of bacterial infection and other infections such as toxicaria.
Vegetables are basically grown in soil enriched with manure. i.e. shit. So a HUGE potential
Hence just as with meat - if you fail to prepare and store it properly - you are asking for problems. Toxicaria infections have been linked to poorly washed vegetables where cats shit on vegetable patches. The original research linked these nematode worm infections to dog faeces but further investigation found that whilst it was a possibility with feral dogs and dogs not wormed regularly, the biggest culprit was the cat that kills and eats wild animals and then shits out the larval stage of the nematode worm in our vegetable patch where if we eat the unwashed veg we risk our eyesight!
Once again we have extreme views spinning reality so that it fits a particular groups agenda.
The description "one part cult - one part eating disorder" is spot on in my view.
Excerpt from the German peer reviewed report
author by Allan - http://bristolaf.wordpress.com/publication date Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:25
You didn't tell us which German report you are referring to - we now have about 5.
I note that googling your exact quote leads to this result:
No results found for "A purely vegan diet, however, can not ensure adequate nutrition during pregnancy, even with careful food selection. (It) carries serious health risks - particularly the development of the child's nervous system.".
So please link to the article where you found the excerpt which "seems pretty conclusive to you"
The lesson of this thread is that we cannot rely on unsourced claims - we need links so we can check them out for ourselves.
I would value long term demographic studies (such as the China Study) much higher than a report from an organisation in a country with a higher than average meat consumption, by 'doctors' or scientists with questionable vested interests. I haven't researched any of them so far, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that some of the people responsible for anti-vegan reports also sit on boards within the meat and dairy industries!
Eating red meat raises 'substantially' risk of cancer or heart disease death...
Eating any kind of red meat was found to increase the chances of dying from heart disease by 16% and from cancer by 10%.
Regularly eating red meat increases significantly risk of death from heart disease and cancer, according to a study of more than 120,000 people carried out over 28 years.
The findings show that each extra daily serving of processed red meat – equivalent to one hot dog or two rashers of bacon – raised mortality rate by a fifth.
Conversely, replacing red meat with fish, poultry, or plant-based protein foods contributed to a longer life. Nuts were said to reduce mortality rate by 20%, making a case for swapping roast beef for nut roast.
Data from 121,342 men and women taking part in two large US health and lifestyle investigations were analysed to produce the findings, published in the journal Archives of Internal Medicine.
The studies monitored the progress of their participants for more than 20 years and gathered information about diet.
Scientists documented 23,926 deaths, including 5,910 from heart disease and 9,364 from cancer, and there was a striking association in the data between consumption of red meat and premature death.
Each additional daily serving of unprocessed red meat, equivalent to a helping of beef, lamb or pork about the size of a deck of cards, raised the mortality rate by 13%, while processed meat increased it by 20%.
When deaths were broken down into specific causes, eating any kind of red meat increased the chances of dying from heart disease by 16% and from cancer by 10%. Processed red meat raised the risk of heart disease death by 21% and cancer death by 16%.
Senior author Professor Frank Hu, of Harvard School of Public Health in Boston, US, said: "This study provides clear evidence that regular consumption of red meat, especially processed meat, contributes substantially to premature death.
"On the other hand, choosing more healthful sources of protein in place of red meat can confer significant health benefits by reducing chronic disease morbidity [illness] and mortality." Previous research has linked red meat consumption to cancer risk.
The study found that cutting red meat out of the diet entirely led to significant benefits. Halving red meat consumption could have prevented 9.3% of deaths of men and 7.6% of women taking part in the study.
The researchers came to their conclusions after taking account of known chronic disease risk factors such as age, body weight, physical activity and family history.
The World Cancer Research Fund recommends that people avoid processed meat entirely and limit their consumption of red meat to 500g a week. Dr Rachel Thompson, the charity's deputy head of science, said: "This study strengthens the body of evidence which shows a link between red meat and chronic diseases such as cancer and heart disease.
"The study calculates that lives would be saved if people replaced red meat with healthy protein sources such as fish, poultry, nuts and legumes. We would like to see more people replacing red meat with these type of foods."
The findings were challenged by Dr Carrie Ruxton, of the Meat Advisory Panel, an expert body funded by the meat industry.
She said: "This US study looked at associations between high intakes of red meat and risk of mortality, finding a positive association between the two. However, the study was observational, not controlled, and so cannot be used to determine cause and effect."
Dr Ruxton pointed out that meat and meat products were significant sources of essential nutrients such as iron, zinc, selenium, B vitamins and vitamin D.
In the UK, red meat was "critically important" to zinc intake, contributing 32% of the total for men and 27% for women. Red meat also contributed about 17% of total dietary iron intake in the UK.
Victoria Taylor, a dietitian at the British Heart Foundation, said: "This study links red meat to deaths from CVD [cardiovascular disease] and cancer.
"Red meat can still be eaten as part of a balanced diet, but go for the leaner cuts and use healthier cooking methods such as grilling. If you eat processed meats like bacon, ham, sausages or burgers several times a week, add variation to your diet by substituting these for other protein sources such as fish, poultry, beans or lentils."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/mar/12/red-meat-...ancer
Tony wrote:
"Hey 'Not a Doctor' keep your word and pay up man. You asked people to provide a link, the 'Doctor' gave you the name of articles and another poster provided you with links to the articles. You yourself even provided links to the articles."
Let me remind you EXACTLY what I asked for Tony:
"
I will donate £20 to the charity of your choice if you can identify the links to the "proper science" and "scientific papers" that have so impressed Nick, Sue and Troll Catcher and which back up the claims outlined above- as long as they appear within one of the first 42 comments on this thread and not to a portal that requires a log-in."
The links I provided, and the wrong links others provided DID NOT appear within the first 42 comments on this thread.
So, unless you can point to them within the 42 comments - where Nick, Sue and Troll Catcher apparently found them - I don't need to pay anything.
The actual quote with link
author by Googlerpublication date Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:17
Provides us again with a quote and link (which also appears in the comment by use Google Translaterpublication date Thu Jan 10, 2013 07:40:
That quote is:
"A purely vegan diet, however, can not ensure adequate nutrition during pregnancy, even with careful food selection. She carries serious health risks - particularly the development of the child's nervous system. Critical including the supply of protein, iron, calcium, iodine, zinc, vitamin B 12 and vitamin D. Such a diet requires therefore always a special medical advice and the use of micronutrient supplements."
which is different to the two quotes provided by the 'Doctor'
which I'll repost here:
1) ""Therefore, a vegan diet is not recommended for the population in general, and in particular not for children and other vulnerable groups such as pregnant women and elderly people." "
2)
""The strict vegetarian/vegan diet is not recommended for any age group because of the risks. The DGE warns against it especially for infants, children and young people."
and that would be because it is from a different study, by different authors as I noted in my previous comment (Thu Jan 10, 2013 09:47)
Alison (Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:20) notes that:
"The clear fact is that a major European medical organisation after research finds that a vegan diet is not suitable for pregnant women."
although she rather oddly doesn't care who said what - is she trying to distract us perhaps?
But what would she make of this "consensus decision" from the Queensland Health Dietitian Nutritionists, in the Queensland Govt, leaflet "Healthy eating for vegan pregnant and breastfeeding mothers" which can be viewed at http://tinyurl.com/b62ytv3 ?
"A well planned diet is able to meet nutrition requirements for pregnancy and breastfeeding"
And what of the postion of the American Dietetic Association (http://tinyurl.com/ay82odp) below?
"appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases, Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the lifecycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes"
It seems that there are professionals who do not believe the results of the German studies. So, are the Germans right and the Americans and Australians wrong?
Are there any further studies to back up the claims by the Germans?
Anybody who feels forced to give up veganism on the basis of a bad Google translation of a handful of reports which are not supported by Dietitians in at least two other countries would surely be making a mistake!
The moral of the story is - a claim without a link is not worth a thing. A few studies which are not accepted by all trained professionals are not conclusive proof of anything.
At the end of the day you yourself have to check the sources, do the research and make your own mind up.
Don't let a troll and his sock puppets or even more than one troll push you into anything just because they keep making the same unsourced claims in different ways.
The fact that 'ftp' is supposed to be posting on this thread is further evidence that there are trolls at work.
Troll Droppings
author by ftppublication date Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:25
http://bristol.indymedia.org/hidden_articles.php?cview=...58468
http://bristol.indymedia.org/hidden_articles.php?cview=...58471
Scroll down for both comments
also this one:
http://bristol.indymedia.org/hidden_articles.php?cview=...58458
The Vegan society has "Vested Interests" that are clear and obvious. These doctors have not shown to have any.
Your assumptions and failure to address the key facts contained within a peer reviewed report tell me you are not someone who is going to change their mind based on facts, rather you are a belief person. That's fine, religion needs people like you.
As was said earlier "One Part Cult - One Part eating Disorder"
Vested interests
by A healthy long-term vegan Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:13
I would value long term demographic studies (such as the China Study) much higher than a report from an organisation in a country with a higher than average meat consumption, by 'doctors' or scientists with questionable vested interests. I haven't researched any of them so far, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that some of the people responsible for anti-vegan reports also sit on boards within the meat and dairy industries!
A good and sort of sensible first half to this post. Shame it is nonsense.
I too would be interested in such a long term study. But as we are dealing with the unborn child here I doubt that the possibility of any parent wanting to commit their unborn child to potential longer term health problems would make entry into such a study attractive.
There would be the ethical concern as well - I doubt such a study would get any sort of approval given the risk already clearly identified re a vegan diet and pregnancy.
Then we have the killer comment where the bias of the poster is let slip. Namely:-
".........but I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that some of the people responsible for anti-vegan reports also sit on boards within the meat and dairy industries!"
So I presume that it is OK for those of us urging caution re a strict Vegan diet to assume that some of those advocating a vegan diet in pregnancy do so because they are part of a cult and have an eating disorder?
The best pro-Veganism / Anti-meat-eating video.
Short version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQCe4qEexjc&feature=youtu.be
(10 minute version)
Full video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNED7GJLY7I
(almost 2 hours duration)
Quote- "I know a number of women who have been vegan since birth and none of them have had any problems with development"
I know a number of people who smoke 20 a day and don't have lung cancer, therefore your logic dictates smoking is not bad for you.
the tobacco companies will be delighted with your revelation
Do you feel comfortable pushing a diet on young women that damages unborn children ?
This is the conclusion of a medical report that is accepted by the medical community.
The fact that the Vegan Society does not wish to comment on the report speaks volumes.
Clearly there are concerns over the health of unborn children where mothers are Vegan, we can conclude this because.
1 - There are at least three peer reviewed report from groups of doctors who have raised concerns
2 - There is a German report from respected doctors, on a recognised site that makes a clear open statement that there is a risk.
3 - The Vegan Society refuses to discuss the report
4 - The Vegan Society refuses to make a statement regarding the health of unborn children to Vegan mothers preferring to refer people to their doctors despite feeling confident enough to offer health advice in many other parts of the website and literature.
Any one of the above would have seen me raise the issue with my wife should she have been a Vegan when she was expecting.
Pro-Vegan posters here seem more keen on trying to cause confusion and accusing others of trolling then they are responding to the reports, that in itself is suspicious and makes me think that this is an issue recognised in Vegan circles.
Thinking maybe I'll go veggie now and see how it goes, not sure about vegan tho, at least not yet :)
It seems to me that at least Vegan diet can be a coherent ethical position. It's not always expressed coherently, but it can be.
The vegetarian position seems to be a muddle ethically. The Dairy industry is horrible.
First, the milk is intended for cows' offspring. But we take a calf away from its mother literally hours after birth so we may confiscate the newborn's food. A calf normally suckles and bonds for 6 months.
Second, to keep a cow producing milk you have to keep her pregnant. How do you make a cow pregnant every year? Often by artificial insemination. The collection of sperm is an unsettling read.
Third, the dairy industry has little use for all those male calves born from the accelerated forced-pregnancy schedule; they don't produce milk. What does the industry do with male calves? Most are slaughtered immediately and sold as pet food.
"From the calf's point of view, immediate slaughter is the better fate, for it spares him 16 weeks of confinement in semi-darkness" fed only 'milk replacer' and a cocktail of chemicals which prepares his flesh to be sold as veal.
Fourth, dairy cows live a short, hard life:
"Although the natural lifespan of a cow is around 20 years, dairy cows are usually killed at between five and seven years of age, because they cannot sustain the unnaturally high rate of milk production."
Fifth, dairy farms are large and acute sources of air pollution, water pollution, and greenhouse gases. Residents nearest the farms are the hardest hit.
http://fanaticcook.blogspot.fr/2011/01/ethics-of-dairy-....html
Although some historians and anthropologists say that man is historically omnivorous, our anatomical equipment teeth, jaws, and digestive system favors a fleshless diet. The American Dietetic Association notes that "most of mankind for most of human history has lived on vegetarian or near-vegetarian diets."
And much of the world still lives that way. Even on most industrialized countries, the love affair with meat is less than a hundred years old. It started with the refrigerator car and the twentieth-century consumer society. But even with the twentieth century, man's body hasn't adapted to eating meat. The prominent Swedish scientist Karl von Linne states, "Man's structure, external and internal, compared with that of the other animals, shows that fruit and succulent vegetables constitute his natural food." The chart below compares the anatomy of man with that of carnivorous and herbivorous animals.
When you look at the comparison between herbivores and humans, we compare much more closely to herbivores than meat eating animals. Humans are clearly not designed to digest and ingest meat.
Meat-eaters: have claws
Herbivores: no claws
Humans: no claws
Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue
Herbivores: perspire through skin pores
Humans: perspire through skin pores
Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding
Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding
Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding
Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly
Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.
Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.
Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat
Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater
Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater
Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits.
Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits
Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits
Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Clearly if humans were meant to eat meat we wouldn't have so many crucial ingestive/digestive similarities with animals that are herbivores.
"Do you feel comfortable pushing a diet on young women that damages unborn children ?
This is the conclusion of a medical report that is accepted by the medical community."
But does it have consensus 'Varied diet eater' ?
Here's 2 qualified medical professionals who agree that a vegan diet is safe during pregnancy in conjunction with supplements.
http://www.babycenter.com/406_is-it-safe-to-eat-a-vegan...89.bc
Another doctor says it IS safe with planned eating/supplements
http://www.parentsconnect.com/pregnancy/health/is-it-sa....html
Another doctor tells us that:
“The Farm" is a community of young people in Summertown, Tennessee. Members follow a vegan diet (no animal-derived foods) and the outcomes of pregnancy have been reported to be excellent.6 The maternity care records of 775 vegan mothers found no symptoms of preeclampsia, and only one case that met the clinical criteria. In 1987 a research article about the Farm experience proposed that preeclampsia is due to the unrestrained consumption of "fast foods" (foods having high levels of saturated fat) and rapid weight gain of the mothers-to-be. A vegan diet was proposed as the solution. "
http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2011nl/jan/pregnancy.htm
The Telegraph reports a study in Eire which found that "Vegan diet increases the risk of birth defects" - the researchers quoted do not suggest stopping the vegan diet - instead they recommend supplements.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/4902648/Ve....html
and another doctor notes:
"If you get the impression that we're concerned about the adequacy of the vegan diet for pregnancy, you're correct. Two or three times a week we have unfortunate consultations with women who are very well meaning, but whose diets just don't meet the minimum nutrient level for successful pregnancy. However, we are also realistic enough to know that if you are a dedicated vegan, merely reading our advice to use animal milks and cheeses and eggs for a concentrated protein-calorie source during pregnancy isn't going to change your mind at all. Instead, we've decided to rev up the vegan program to a level that is compatible with a healthy outcome for you and your baby. "
"http://www.drbrewerpregnancydiet.com/id26.html
So, there is little evidence that there is unanimous agreement that a vegan diet "damages unborn children" and I'm pretty certain you won't be producing any!
Why not come along to Kebele for a vegan breakfast extravaganza this Saturday from 11am @ Kebele, 14 Robertson Road, Easton. A delicious big fry up for just £3 suggested donation.
"Clearly there are concerns over the health of unborn children where mothers are Vegan, we can conclude this because.
1 - There are at least three peer reviewed report from groups of doctors who have raised concerns
2 - There is a German report from respected doctors, on a recognised site that makes a clear open statement that there is a risk."
Perhaps you could list these 3 or is 4 reports for us. Are they all in German? If so that makes them inaccesible to most Bindy readers I should imagine, and Google translate is not accurate enough to be relied upon. I note you ignored 2 reports that categorically state that I linked to in my post at Thu Jan 10, 2013 13:06. Did you miss them, or just find that they flat out contradicted your meme?
"3 - The Vegan Society refuses to discuss the report
4 - The Vegan Society refuses to make a statement regarding the health of unborn children to Vegan mothers preferring to refer people to their doctors despite feeling confident enough to offer health advice in many other parts of the website and literature."
The evidence for this I am guessing is Alison's claim that she is posting a bona fide email from the Vegan Society in her post at Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:50
She posts no header or details to prove that the email is genuine, and if there is any lesson to learn from this thread, it is that we should not trust claims that we cannot check ourselves. I have therefore emailed the Vegan Society with a link to Alison's post and invited them to confim it is genuine. I have also given them an email address so that they can contact the BIMC mods directly. Until there is proof that the email is genuine we should treat it as dubious.
You go on to note that:
"Pro-Vegan posters here seem more keen on trying to cause confusion and accusing others of trolling then they are responding to the reports, that in itself is suspicious and makes me think that this is an issue recognised in Vegan circles."
Anti-vegan posters (if there are more than 1!) have behaved atrociously on this thread - they have made unsubstantiated claims and failed to provide links, and have ignored links that counter what they claim.
Fortunately most readers who can be bothered to troll through over 60 commenst will see that for themselves.
Must watch video for the ignorant meat-eaters amongst us
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzrRmB40l00
I'm genuinely interested to know what a vegan "fry up" consists of.
I'm not that bothered about vegans or their diet but this thread has just been great fun.
I always assumed vegans at least had some great health data on their side that was a justification for their tasteless choice of dinner but to discover that vegan food is both dull and not very good for you is just hilarious.
Aside from the dead cow argument and bluntly who cares that much, why the hell would anyone now choose to be a vegan ?
Personally I think you are a Clone Troll who morphs from one personality to another - but your latest idiocy ia so great that it does require a comment:-
Humans not physically created to eat meat
by Christina Penelope Thu Jan 10, 2013 16:34
When you look at the comparison between herbivores and humans, we compare much more closely to herbivores than meat eating animals. Humans are clearly not designed to digest and ingest meat.
(spherical objects! - what are the pointed teeth we have!)
Meat-eaters: have claws
(Not always what about sharks? or Killer whales - or are you so blind that you do not think to consider the oceans as part of the planet?
Herbivores: no claws
(Omnivores - or sharks either!!)
Humans: no claws
Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue
(No - Land based meat eaters also perspire through their paws and by licking their fur.)
Herbivores: perspire through skin pores - (as do many omnivores)
Humans: perspire through skin pores - (as do many omnivores)
Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding (Meat eaters also have sharp flat cutting front teeth)
Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding (Bollocks! - many do!)
Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding (Bollocks! - we have four canine teeth either side of our front sharp cutting teeth!)
Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly ( total nonsense - we for example have a vestigial appendix that used to be used to help us digest grass)
Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length. (Here that appendix is still used)
Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length. (is that with or without our vestigial appendix ;0) )
Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat (True)
Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater (VERY Dubious statement as strong acid is still required to break down cellulose)
Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater (TOTAL BOLLOCKS - ask anyone with a stomach ulcer via H. pylori - humans have acid levels as strong as other meat eaters)
Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits. True
Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits (But true of omnivores such as humans as well)
Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits (But then combined with our canine teeth we are designed to eat meat as well!)
Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains (So do Omnivores)
Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains - (But chewing meat does enable pre-digestion)
Clearly if humans were meant to eat meat we wouldn't have so many crucial ingestive/digestive similarities with animals that are herbivores.
THIS LAST STATEMENT IS TOTAL SPIN WORTHY OF ALISTAIR CAMPBELL - HUMANS ARE OMNIVORES AND THEREFORE WORK BEST ON A BALANCED DIET OF BOTH MEAT AND VEGETABLES, GRAINS AND FRUIT.
EATING NOTHING BUT MEAT IS AS STUPID AND AS DANGEROUS TO HEALTH AS A STRICT VEGAN DIET.
WHAT IS REQUIRED IS A BALANCED DIET.
TO MY MIND THE VEGANS THAT POST HERE HAVE A MIND SET AS WELL BALANCED AS THEIR DIET.
There are very real concerns about health for a vegan diet
Studies are ongoing
Previous studies are contradictory
Humans are not designed to live on a vegan diet
Teenagers and pregnant women to be on the safe side should not go vegan.
Having been a vegetarian for two years I have come under some gentle pressure from friends in AR to make the switch to full vegan however this thread has made me dig deeper into the issues surrounding health in relation to a vegan life. Reading last night I was surprised to see the amount of argument about what I thought was a decided issue. From the conversations I had had with friends I had just assumed that a vegan life was healthy and safe but that is not the case is seems.
As I am planning to try for a baby this year I have decided to remain a vegetarian so I want to thank all of those posters who gave both sides of the argument and helped me decide.
All power to Bristol Indymedia as once again a great source of information !
Its the least I can do for the world, my health, and for my kids
"Humans are not designed to live on a vegan diet"
Farming and supermarkets predate humankind?
"Teenagers and pregnant women to be on the safe side should not go vegan. "
So say a handful of German language studies. The only advice from medically qualified professionals which was linked to, all said that well planned vegan diets in conjunction with supplements are perfectly adequate.
We have yet to see a link to a professional advising women to give up veganism when pregnant, other than those German studies.
The claims came from trolls pretending to be qualified medical experts - using reports which are consigned to footnote 48 of a Wikipedia article, and repeated several times by sock puppets are worthless. No evidence has yet been provided that any other countries have gone down the same route or come to the same conclusions.
But maybe you prefer unsourced claims from hostile trolls?
Because, what is also clear is that this thread was trolled to death. And despite the fact that many of the troll posts broke many of the guidelines, they were left up. So expect more threads to be trolled to death.
If you are the sort of women happy to bring a child into the world while still consuming the product of dead animals perhaps you should consider if you are a fit person to be a mother.
Vegetarianism is simply a stage to becoming a Vegan not a destination in its own right. I am unable to understand why everybody is not a Vegan.
I am somewhat resentful of the implication I made my decision based only on the information here. This series of posts by people prompted me to investigate further. I am fortunate in speaking German so was able to read the reports listed above but I also looked at others. Reading your posts above you are clearly quick to call somebody a 'troll' when they post in a way you don't approve of or fail to provide links that you agree with so I full expect to be called a 'troll' for providing these links which I went through last night.
http://www.mercola.com/article/diet/former_vegan.htm
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/04/30/vegan-diet-for-....html
http://www.parentdish.com/2007/05/22/vegan-diet-dangero...kids/
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/WomensHealth/natalie-portm...49964
http://savorthejourneyblog.com/dangers-of-vegan-diets-a...cies/
Enjoy your reading. More links to come
Humans are omnivores.
Anyone who questions another right to feed their children accordingly has extreme views that should be dismissed as such in my opinion.
One reason why a balanced diet should be on any sensible persons/parents agenda is because we humans cannot synthesise Vit D - we get that from meat and sunshine.
Children deprived of meat run the risk of osteoporosis. A wicked decease that females are already prone to post menopause and will be even worse for those whose bone density will be compromised via a vegan diet.
Yes supplements can be taken - but surely that simply underlines the fact that a Vegan diet is a faddy extreme and is certainly not a balanced diet.
Have a look in the mirror and smile - those pointy teeth are called Canine's and the sharp front teath plus the canines are for meat eating. we also have grinding teeth for vegetables etc.
This makes us Omnivores.
Personal attacks on others who have differing views to you will never make you "right" - but it does make you look both extreme and stupid.
http://greenliving.nationalgeographic.com/vegan-diets-2....html
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opinion/21planck.html...?_r=0
"I was once a vegan. But well before I became pregnant, I concluded that a vegan pregnancy was irresponsible. You cannot create and nourish a robust baby merely on foods from plants."
"There was little compelling evidence that eating vegan is a particularly healthy diet and can be, in fact, very dangerous"
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/3/516S.full
"A vegan diet should be avoided for women seeking to get pregnant or who are pregnant. Developing girls should be discouraged from following a vegan diet"
http://www.thesweetbeet.com/vegan-diet/
"The biggest challenge that I would be concerned about with a strict and long-term vegan diet is that there are critical vitamins and minerals that could easily not be consumed in adequate amounts."
I agree that Veganism is a natural progression from Vegetarianism and feel it is the only truly compassionate diet, best for people, the planet and the animals. But whilst I personally wouldn't want to bring any children into this world (as there are too many of us already) I don't think claiming someone is not fit to be a mother because they are not vegan is either true or helpful! It horrifies me on the odd occasion I venture into a supermarket to see what people are putting in their trolleys, especially when they also have young children, but someone who is already veggie is at least going to be cutting out some of the worst offending food groups.
I still stand by my statement that a vegan diet is the best start you can give a child, for all the health reasons that have been mentioned above.
Greetings,
I just wanted to confirm that well-planned vegan diets can support healthy living at every age and life-stage, from planning parenthood, through pregnancy, weaning & childhood, and throughout adult life including elite athletic performance.
Anyone with health concerns which they think may be diet-related should ask their family doctor to refer them to a Registered Dietitian, as doctors are not trained in nutrition.
The Vegan Society freely publishes straight-forward healthy eating guidelines, prepared in consultation with Registered Dietitian Sandra Hood amongst others: http://www.vegansociety.com/lifestyle/nutrition/
The Vegan Society also gives specific advice on nutrition during parenting: http://www.vegansociety.com/lifestyle/parenting/
Thank you,
Amanda
--
Media Relations - Mobile: 07847 664 793 Tel: 0121 523 1737
Email: media@vegansociety.com Web: www.vegansociety.com
Address: The Vegan Society, Donald Watson House, 21 Hylton St, Hockley, Birmingham B18 6HJ UK Reg. Charity No 279228 Company Reg. No 1468880 Registered in England & Wales VAT Reg. No 448 5973 95
If it was unatural for humans to eat meat, as claims regarding unsiutable teeth & digestive systems would suggest, doing so would make us ill?
Also many primates are omnivores and I believe that we are anatomically similar to them.
As far as I'm concerned people can eat whatever they choose but I would suggest stating that meat eaters are not fit to be parents for no reason other than their diet is the most ridiculous thing that I have ever read, it's such an exteme view perhaps the author should consider a career as a Daily Mail reporter.
This quote from the Vegan Society is surprising,
"I just wanted to confirm that well-planned vegan diets can support healthy living at every age and life-stage"
Aside from the fact the person making it is a PR officer not a doctor so is not qualified to make such a statement I would question in light of the posts and links above if it is indeed true. The evidence against a vegan diet for some people is growing it seems to me. The vegan society may well think their income is under threat by the health risks of veganism but that is no reason to make dubious statements.
Interesting how the Vegan Society website itself suggests the use of supplements to ensure adequate nutrition. Let's look at vitamin D - according to the Vegan Society:
"Most Vitamin D comes from sun exposure. If this is limited, foods fortified with vitamin D2 (such as margarine or soya milk) can provide some of the daily requirements, or a supplement can be used. (Note: D3 is not usually suitable for vegans). Daily amount: 10 micrograms"
So, if sun exposure is limited (more than likely) then a vegan either needs to take a supplement or eat a food that has been fortified (had a supplement added).
Non Vegans can eat eggs, beef liver, oily fish, etc etc.
So, a non-vegan can eat something natural whereas a vegan needs a synthetic supplement.
Simply put, veganism is not naturally sustainable unless you are happy having rickets.
My conclusion? All very admirable but please don't try to pass it off as the best and most natural diet for the human body - it isn't.
There is no need for anybody to eat meat I don't care about any of the arguments put forward here. Eating mee is wrong there is no other argument.
If people are unwilling to see this then meat consumption should be banned.
If you want to make allegations against Amanda or the Vegans Society (you cowardly smearer you) why not take them to the charity commissioners instead of smearing them here anonymously, eh?
Agree totally with "Not a Vegan" I posted similar but for some reason it never appeared.
One of the things Vit D is important for is bone strength. Without Vit D Rickets at a young age is a possibility - BUT if you deliberately deprive yourself by way of a Vegan diet then you bone density will be that much lower and therefore osteoporosis far more likely.
Women after the menopause are far more likely than men to suffer from osteoporosis but can protect themselves by making sure that their bone density is as high as possible prior to the menopause after which the lack of oestrogen makes post menopausal women far more prone to weak bones.
A balanced diet throughout life should provide sufficient Vit D (which is a fatty vitamin present in meat, butter oily fish etc.) so deliberately putting yourself at risk of this debilitating disease hardly seems sensible.
And as "Not a Vegan" points out - Vegans can take Vit D supplements - but this simply underlines the fact that for a human - as an omnivore - the vegan diet is an incomplete one.
And strict adherence to a Vegan diet does put you at risk. If some are that convinced that veganism is for them - then go ahead - nobody will be that bothered I am sure if in decades to come the strict Vegans are all bible backed hobbits who break bones by simply bumping into things.
If anyone wants to see the results of osteoporosis - then pop into a Rheumatology ward.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\
/////////////
Supplements
by Not a vegan Fri Jan 11, 2013 17:46
Interesting how the Vegan Society website itself suggests the use of supplements to ensure adequate nutrition. Let's look at vitamin D - according to the Vegan Society:
"Most Vitamin D comes from sun exposure. If this is limited, foods fortified with vitamin D2 (such as margarine or soya milk) can provide some of the daily requirements, or a supplement can be used. (Note: D3 is not usually suitable for vegans). Daily amount: 10 micrograms"
So, if sun exposure is limited (more than likely) then a vegan either needs to take a supplement or eat a food that has been fortified (had a supplement added).
Non Vegans can eat eggs, beef liver, oily fish, etc etc.
So, a non-vegan can eat something natural whereas a vegan needs a synthetic supplement.
Simply put, veganism is not naturally sustainable unless you are happy having rickets.
My conclusion? All very admirable but please don't try to pass it off as the best and most natural diet for the human body - it isn't.
Ban meet now
by No further discussion is needed Fri Jan 11, 2013 18:39
There is no need for anybody to eat meat I don't care about any of the arguments put forward here. Eating mee is wrong there is no other argument.
If people are unwilling to see this then meat consumption should be banned.
............................
So no further discussion is needed eh? You are right and everyone else is wrong. You obviously have a monopoly on the truth. So everything I have ever learned about having a balanced diet and humans being omnivores because they have canine teeth as well as grinding teeth is just bollocks is it?
Anything other than the gospel according to Vegan should be banned it seems.
Yeah right - like sensible parents the world over are going to let the fruit loops dictate what a healthy diet for their kids would be.
Rather than talk of banning meat - why not just be what you want to be - vegan or whatever and just be yourself? What makes veganism seem like a cult is the fervour by which believers want all to be as they are!
It just does not make sense. You either are happy with what you are, or you feel vulnerable such that others must be forced to follow your arrogant elitist example.
"The vegan society may well think their income is under threat by the health risks of veganism but that is no reason to make dubious statements. "
You trolls were all in favour of the Vegan Society when a fake email was posted in their name!
Now you're suggesting that they're only in it for the money.... and suggesting that 'Registered Dietitian Sandra Hood' "is not qualified to make such a statement"
And no doubt neither are the authors of this statement 'qualified':
"A well planned diet is able to meet nutrition requirements for pregnancy and breastfeeding"
http://tinyurl.com/b62ytv3
or this one:
"appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases, Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the lifecycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes"
http://tinyurl.com/ay82odp
As a vegetarian woman thinking about becoming a Vegan, I need to do the necessary research first, especially so as I am thinking about starting a family in the near'ish future.
So as I seek the knowledge upon which to make an informed and intelligent decision, I find myself confronted with lots of conflicting opinions, just like on this thread, so who should I trust?
Do I trust someone who calls themself 'doctor' here? - no I don't think so.
Do I trust someone with an axe to grind against everyone who is to the left of Genghis Khan? - no way.
Do I trust someone who cannot comment here without slagging off other users? - no chance.
Do I trust someone who is here just to score petty points against others? - sorry no.
Do I trust someone who cannot take in all the issues and connections? - fat chance.
Do I trust someone who thinks that humankind is seperate from nature as a whole? - no no no.
Do I trust someone who is insensitive to the feelings of animals? - I'm afraid not.
Do I trust someone someone who thinks that they are somehow superior to all other species?
NO FUCKING WAY!
The Vegan Society works for me, I will trust them, not least because of their compassion and emotional intelligence, but also the fact that it is staffed mostly by aware perceptive, sensitive females.
"The Vegan Society works for me, I will trust them, not least because of their compassion and emotional intelligence, but also the fact that it is staffed mostly by aware perceptive, sensitive females."
Who will have a far greater chance of having a fucked up skeletal system come retirement as well as screwing up the normal development of any children they have if given absolute control over their diet.
"Who will have a far greater chance of having a fucked up skeletal system come retirement as well as screwing up the normal development of any children they have if given absolute control over their diet."
Needless to say, like the other anti-vegans this one doesn't source the claims either.
So, here are some sources to look at:
"There are a limited number of studies of vegans, most of which find low bone density, as well as low calcium intakes 6-8. Results of a meta-analysis that combined several studies predicted that vegans would have a slightly (perhaps 10%) higher risk of bone fracture compared to non-vegetarians 8. One study found that, when calcium intakes were adequate (greater than 525 mg/day in this study), vegans had no greater risk of breaking a bone than did non-vegetarians with similar calcium intakes 7. Since many factors can affect calcium needs, we recommend that vegans try to meet the recommendations for the general public."
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/calcium.php
Epidemiologist and lead author Dr Tuan Nguyen, of Sydney's Garvan Institute of Medical Research Garvan Institute of Medical Research , says there are four main factors that influence bone density; genetics, hormones, exercise and nutrition.
He expected vegans, those who avoid eating animal products, would have lower bone density and therefore a higher risk of bone fracture.
The study found that on average vegans had a bone mass density 5% lower than non-vegans.
But Nguyen says the study found vegans were no more likely to be treated for bone fractures than non-vegans.
This is probably because vegans tend to be more health conscious, he says.
"If you look at vegetarians as a whole they are certainly healthier, they tend to live longer and have lower risk of hypertension and heart disease."
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2009/07/02/26152...1.htm
In conclusion, the studied subjects on vegan diets had generally normal growth and quite adequate nutritional status. However, both the adults and children had had decreased mineral bone density in important sites of skeleton. It may be related with an inadequate intake of calcium and vitamin D in their vegan diet, especially for children in the growing stage, when most of the peak bone mass is accumulated. Further studies of assessing bone quality in individuals following restricted vegetarian diets are needed. This data may assist in deciding whether vitamin and mineral supplementation is useful and helps to prevent bone abnormalities in their later life.
http://tinyurl.com/cvfetnn
A study comparing the bone health of 105 post-menopausal vegan Buddhist nuns and 105 non-vegetarian women, matched in every other physical respect, has produced a surprising result. Their bone density was identical.
The study was led by Professor Tuan Nguyen from Sydney’s Garvan Institute of Medical Research. He collaborated with Dr Ho-Pham Thuc Lan from the Pham Ngoc Thach Medical University in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam. Their findings are now published online in Osteoporosis International.
“For the 5% of people in Western countries who choose to be vegetarians, this is very good news,” said Professor Nguyen. “Even vegans, who eat only plant-based foods, appear to have bones as healthy as everyone else.”
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/0904161023...2.htm
The claim "a far greater chance of having a fucked up skeletal system come retirement" is NOT supported by the evidence.
And the chances of 'my bones are normally dense' providing supporting evidence of the claim of there being a a far greater chance of vegans "screwing up the normal development of any children they have if given absolute control over their diet" are around zero.......
That's an easy one. My doctor
She recomends the avoidence of a vegan diet
As she is trained in medicine and the pro vegan people here are not I will go with the expert
You quote:-
"appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases, Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the lifecycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes"
http://tinyurl.com/ay82odp
'''''''''''''''''
Well I looked at the reference and it s about a well balanced vegetarian diet - NOT a vegan diet.
It states that a vegetarian diet includes dairy products eggs and fish.
It also further into the paper states that Osteoporosis is a problem for vegans due to their low protein intake and lack of Vit D.
Thank you - this article pretty much confirms what I said re Osteoporosis Vit D and how a Vegan diet would put you at a significantly higher risk of this crippling disease as you get older.
Your quotations and references state my case for me - sadly for you.
If Vegans have to take calcium and Vit D supplements - this underlines the point made previously that a Vegan diet alone is not sufficient for good health,
Supplements are required - Thank you for confirming this fact. By your own words you confirm that without suppeiments, a vegan diet is not a balanced one.
A vegetarian diet that can include fish, dairy and eggs is a perfectly able to be a healthy balanced diet.
A strict Vegan diet - on its own is anything but.
Hence the need for supplements.
So once again - many thanks for proving my point.
"The Vegan Society works for me, I will trust them, not least because of their compassion and emotional intelligence, but also the fact that it is staffed mostly by aware perceptive, sensitive females."
--------------------------------------
Really ? I would have thought an organisation staffed by medical professionals was a better choice of who to listen to!
If you need advice on issues of law do you speak to a lawyer or a caring sensitive women with yoga skills ?
If you need advice about construction do you ask a builder or a bus driver with listening skills ?
If you need somebody to fly a 747 do you look to a pilot or a plumber in touch with his feminine side ?
My doctor is a middle-aged female, and I have just been informed that she is also a vegan, so if its OK with you, I will trust her, and not your good self.
Meat-eaters are far less sensitive generally than either Vegans or Vegetarians.
Meat-eaters are far more likely to use violence than Vegans or Vegetarians.
Meat-eaters are far less caring about animal welfare or the environment.
Meat-eaters are far less peaceable generally than Vegans or Vegetarians.
Those reasons alone were enough to cause me to take up a Vegan diet.
'another woman' : " My doctor
She recomends the avoidence of a vegan diet"
You can thank the trolls for a situation where no claims on this page are believable without proof. And the faked email from the Vegan Society was proof only of the fact that this thread is being trolled by a dishonest person or persons.
JH "Well I looked at the reference and it s about a well balanced vegetarian diet - NOT a vegan diet."
uh uh - let me highlight the relevant bit in your requote@
"appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases, Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the lifecycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes"
and point you to the 'EAL conclusion statement':
"In this article, the term vegetarian will be used to refer to people choosing a lacto-ovo-, lacto-, or vegan vegetarian diet, unless otherwise specified."
Its the 3rd para at the top of the first column on page 1267 if you want to check it - I added the bold to make sure you didn't miss it :-)
JH "It states that a vegetarian diet includes dairy products eggs and fish. "
Yes they term it lacto-ovo- and I refer you to my answer above.
JH "It also further into the paper states that Osteoporosis is a problem for vegans due to their low protein intake and lack of Vit D."
The report deals with osteoporosis at page 1275/6 and I can't find where it makes the claims you say it does. Feel free to quote them directly.
JH "Thank you - this article pretty much confirms what I said re Osteoporosis Vit D and how a Vegan diet would put you at a significantly higher risk of this crippling disease as you get older."
Its a pleasure. Just remember your first claim was wrong, so you might want to double-check in case you were mistaken again.
Hello, actually my doctor is a vegan and has been most of her adult life, she is due to retire this year, she has three lovely daughters, she is as fit as a fiddle, and as slim as you like.
Unlike my carnivorous tory businessman husband who between you and me, is fat like a pig, and verging on the obese...
Good one Val :)
Self-appointed experts here obviously have never entertained the possibility that Dr's could be vegan lol
Boycott these bastards who test their 'products' on animals!
Nothing on this page is gong to make individuals change their mind. Vegans think their choice is the right one, non vegans think that vegans are putting their health at risk.
Some doctors are in favour for Vegansim while others are opposed.
Medical advice as to the risks of Vegansim is contradictory
Vegans make up less than 1% of the planet and that percentage is not growing in ay meaningful way so frankly who cares !
I think their choice is a silly one but it's their choice so leave them to it. I will be enjoying a nice lamb curry for lunch.
See page 1269 of your cited study (the second one) - it talks about Vegans having to take supplements which is the point I am making - but as you seem a tad obtuse on this point - I will say it again!
A well balanced diet for an omnivore would provide all that is required - if Vegan diet requires supplements then by definition it is not "balanced".
Also in the specific section on osteoporosis on page 1275 it states-
"some studies suggest bone density is lower in vegans compared to non-vegans" and then the article references two studies - 164 and 165
Full references to these studies can be found on page 1281
Feel free to do some more reading.
Some people do very well on a vegan diet, others most definitely do not. Vegan diets are usually very high in carbohydrate and based on gluten-containing grains and beans which many people cannot digest. This can result in nutrient deficiencies in susceptible people, aside from the diet itself generally being lower in zinc, B12, D, K, and the omega 3 fatty acids.
That said, I would not put too much faith in scientific studies showing veganism being universally dangerous. I suspect many in this cohort are not eating a well planned diet. I have known many vegans who lived on oven chips and packet noodles!
There is evidence that some people are more suited to a 'paleo' type diet based on meat, fish, nuts, vegetables and fruit, which is what our ancestors would have been able to gather, catch and kill themselves. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_diet
Other people may have digestive systems that have adapted better to a diet based on grains and beans, depending on their ancestry. Some researchers have linked this to blood type or 'metabolic type' - e.g. William Donald Kelly, Nicholas Gonzalez and Peter D'Adamo. Their views are controversial and in some details conflict, but they share the principle that one diet does not suit all.
However I suspect that none of us is really adapted to live healthily on some of the 'frankenfoods' that many vegans/veggies rely on - processed soy and vegetable fats, concentrated wheat protein, quorn etc, any more than we are designed to eat Turkey Twizzlers.
As for eating meat being 'wrong', I do not think it is any more wrong than a chimpanzee eating meat, assuming the animals have been treated well during their lives. Surely we owe it to future generations to aim to be as healthy as possible?
I typed up a long response and somehow it never appeared. I'm not going to try to replicate it.
You think vegans should supplement their diet with animal products. On the other hand they may choose to supplement it with Vitamin D and calcium.
The indications are that vegans can enjoy a well planned diet, with supplements, which is perfectly adequate for their needs, including during childhood and pregnancy, and probably a lot healthier than the diet of most corpse munchers.
No evidence has been produced to support the more outrageous claims in this thread - especially those of the fake nurse and doctor. The claims about bone density are not backed up with evidence of vegans suffering more fractures, or of fucked up skeletal systems, nor of well planned vegan diets harming children.
In case you missed it - here iis my position on you and supplements again:
You appear to think vegans should supplement their diet with animal products.
I think vegans should be free to make a choice about what supplements they use - ideally a informed one.
Do I trust someone who calls themself 'doctor' here? - no I don't think so.
>>Do I trust someone who has made the quasi-ethical decision to be vegan to give unbiased information on the nutritional value of their self imposed diet? Not really
Do I trust someone with an axe to grind against everyone who is to the left of Genghis Khan? - no way.
>>Do I trust someone who assumes that anyone who disagrees with them must be politically to the right of Genghis Khan without any evidence to support their claim? Nope - I don't make a habit of trusting people with paranoid delusions.
Do I trust someone who cannot comment here without slagging off other users? - no chance.
>>Um, reading the other statements in your post which all seem to include a direct insult or a barely hidden aspersion on other posters' character, deductive logic leads to the conclusion that you shouldn't trust yourself Val. In fact, I may agree with you on this one statement, and as such don't trust you.
Do I trust someone who is here just to score petty points against others? - sorry no.
>> Hmm, see above.
Do I trust someone who cannot take in all the issues and connections? - fat chance.
>> Do I trust someone whose argument consists of vagaries such as this (what issues? What connections?)? No. I have learnt over the many years that I have been on this planet that statements such as these without qualification are trying to win an argument by sounding superior.
Do I trust someone who thinks that humankind is seperate from nature as a whole? - no no no.
>> Not sure anyone has said this. I wouldn't suggest that a pig or a bear or even chickens are separate from nature, yet all are omnivorous.
Do I trust someone who is insensitive to the feelings of animals? - I'm afraid not.
>> Do I trust someone that is insensitive to causing harm to unborn children (unless they take a synthetic, non natural supplement). Categorically not.
Do I trust someone someone who thinks that they are somehow superior to all other species?
>> At a very basic level, superiority could be judged by position in the food chain, hence the Lion is the King of thee Jungle... Show me evidence that we are soon to be usurped from our position at the top of the food chain by monkeys/badgers/sheep and I might believe that we are not at the top. Until then I'm afraid that I must conclude that we are indeed superior
NO FUCKING WAY!
>> Agree
The Vegan Society works for me, I will trust them, not least because of their compassion and emotional intelligence, but also the fact that it is staffed mostly by aware perceptive, sensitive females.
>>Or, put another way: "I trust the Vegan society because they agree with me therefore they must be right. Oh yes, and they are women so they must be right... sexism is fine as long as it belittles men." or alternatively, a racist might say "I trust the BNP, not least because they agree with my own blinkered viewpoint. Oh yes, and they are mostly men and everyone knows women are stupid, so because it is made up of men it must be right."
A review of current liturature was carried out at Penn State in the US
The abstract is as follows:-
Veganism and osteoporosis: a review of the current literature.
Smith AM.
Source
The Pennsylvania State University, The College of Health and Human Development, School of Nursing, University Park, Pennsylvania 16802, USA. dollbellie@gmail.com
Abstract
The purpose of this review is to examine the current literature regarding calcium and Vitamin D deficiencies in vegan diets and the possible relationship to low bone mineral density and incidence for fracture. Prominent databases were searched for original research publications providing data capable of answering these questions:
(i) Do vegans have lower-than-recommended levels of calcium/Vitamin D?
(ii) Do vegans have lower bone mineral density than their non-vegan counterparts?
(iii) Are vegans at a greater risk for fractures than non-vegans?
The findings gathered consistently support the hypothesis that vegans do have lower bone mineral density than their non-vegan counterparts.
However, the evidence regarding calcium, Vitamin D and fracture incidence is inconclusive. More research is needed to definitively answer these questions and to address the effects of such deficiencies on the medical and socioeconomic aspects of life.
-------------------
I would suggest that as poor bone density is a known factor in osteoporosis it would be crazy if you want a vegan diet not to take Vit D (especially in our climate!!) and calcium supplements. But in doing so it has to be recognised that by having to take the supplements a Vegan diet is not a well balanced one.
A vegetarian diet seems far more sensible.
If you do like meat - just eat less of it - red meat in particular and eat more fish!
But to me a vegan diet for the rest of your life is as crazy as forcing yourself onto the "Atkins Diet" for the rest of your life.
Balance in life is everything.
Ignorance, arrogance and conviction often go together.
We have seen that here.
This the result of a very quick search of vegan health professionals, there are lots out there, enjoy :)
Plant-Powered Professionals is a compilation of vegan (or those who advocate a 100% plant-based diet) medical doctors, registered dietitians, certified nutritionists, doctors of veterinary medicine, etc. Those who don't live vegan, but advocate for a 100% plant-based diet for health reasons, are indicated as such. Eating a plant-powered diet is not synonymous with being vegan, however the dietary aspect is a big part of vegan living, and one that people need help with. That is why I've compiled professionals and authorities who can help with what to eat and how to stay healthy on the diet vegans eat. We can live beautifully without consuming any animal products, and therefore it is unjust to use fellow sentient animals for food, clothing, products, and practices.
http://thevegantruth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/plant-power....html
"How our vegan diet made us ill"
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-fami....html
Angelina Jolie gets ill on a vegan diet
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010....aspx
Veganism during preganancy (summary - unless you take synthetic supplements you are risking baby's health)
http://www.babycenter.com/406_is-it-safe-to-eat-a-vegan...89.bc
"thought this would be a safe place for women to share and work"
-::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::-
It is, however part of life is being presented with views and opinions that differ to yours combined with facts that may well indicate your previously held beleifs were wrong.
This thread has been simply excellent in my view and I thank the mods for letting it run. I have learnt things, had my views challenged and been driven to do research on a subject I thought I knew about.
Although I will always be vegetarian my often considered decision to become vegan has been postponed indefinitely as a result of what I have learnt.
I was a vegan for a while but I turned back to vegetarianism because I like cheese too much. I was healthy enough as a vegan, healthy enough as a veggie... If you ask me, humans are total omnivorous. If you look around the world and through history you'll find cultures who ate mostly fish and raw seal, cultures who eat little but rice, beans and veg and cultures who eat vast amounts of beef. All have some health problems associated but people basically do ok. If you ask me, humans could probably thrive on a diet of nettles and scabby monkeys if we had to.
But obviously veganism isn't about nutrition - it's about ethics. There's an ethical spectrum. One one end you've got Nigella Lawson's story of a meal that involved inducing a miscarriage in a sow then eating the deep-fried foetus whole. On the other hand you've got Jain monks sweeping the road with soft brushes as they walk to avoid squashing beetles. Almost all of us actually fall somewhere between those extremes. Viewed like that, even veganism is a real-world compromise.
So let's not get too judgemental - we (almost) all draw the line at some degree of cruelty but we all (almost) accept some avoidable animal death and suffering.
Healthy eating sounds good in theory, but in reality most people can't afford to do so.
Vegan only products, are way too expensive for most people, so-called vegan ethical companies are far more responsible for animal slaughter, than someone who buys cheaper meat products out of necessity, as these so-called ethical companies, help to promote the illusion of consumer choice, when a lot of people don't have the luxury of choice, it's buy and sell your conscience by the middle classes, for the middle classes, and some of them makes a nice living out of doing so.
The so-called vegan way of living cannot be taken up by the masses, under the present economic's, or under a capitalist society, which most vegan seem to ignore, the only way veganism as a chance spreading is by getting rid of capitalism, and building a more humane society, which is obviously much easy said, than done.
We ALL need to think bigger, and to care more.
'Today, we produce about four billion metric tonnes of food per annum.
Yet due to poor practices in harvesting, storage and transportation, as well as market and consumer wastage, it is estimated that 30–50% (or 1.2–2 billion tonnes) of all food produced never reaches a human stomach.
Furthermore, this figure does not reflect the fact that large amounts of land, energy, fertilisers and water have also been lost in the production of foodstuffs which simply end up as waste.
This level of wastage is a tragedy that cannot continue if we are to succeed in the challenge of sustainably meeting our future food demands.'
Read the report via this link: http://www.imeche.org/knowledge/themes/environment/glob...-food
I find those numbers very unlikely. What is the source of this figure ?
Please provide at least three links, in English which back them up.
Please find and read the report attached in .pdf form
GLOBAL FOOD - WASTE NOT, WANT NOT.
Institution of Mechanical Engineers.
In the references section on pages 32 -33 you will find this list, lots of links for you to check out in there.
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26 US Geological Survey Water Science School
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fao.org/corp/statistics/en/
28 WHO, Making water a part of economic development.
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29 Humphreys, L., Fawcett, B., O’Neill, C. and Muirhead, W.,
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features/2012/07/20127259518330800.htm
35 www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/oct/14/
food-climate-change-population-water
36 The McIlvaine Company, Market research, Northfield, IL
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37 Water Footprint Network, University of Twente,
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EFFICIENCY_MANUAL.pdf
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nitrogen and phosphorus. Food Policy. Doi: 10.1016/j.
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Food Sector: A data survey. Stockholm University, Sweden
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nutritiondata.self.com/facts/foods-from-mcdonalds/6220/2
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Revaluing Food. (Fabian Society, London, 2012).
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Asia. (Food and Agriculture Organization of the United
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Stockholm, Sweden, 29 August 2012.
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This thread seems to be full of your never ending demands for links, do you not know how to use Google / Yahoo or one of the many other search engines out there ?
I get the feeling that this has become a technique used by some to try and undermine posters views.
Vegetables, grains and pulses (i.e staple vegan foods) are among the cheapest foods around. Yes of course there are specialist vegan products, just like there are for any diet, but that doesn't mean you have to eat them to be vegan!
If you're referring to this comment:
@ Val
author by Not A Doctor publication date Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:13
then you probably forgot that you posted it yourself, because I sure didn't. It wasn't needed - a link was already provided.
Have a nice troll.....
I don't see this is anything to do with you. I can ask for whatever I like.
As this thread is already full of lies and half truths proper proof of assertions is vital.
Nobody has been able to provide links that I consider worthy to prove that a Vegan diet is unhealthy.
So we can assume you accept the point that was being made then now the large number of links has been provided or are you going to try and divert attention from the point by putting up posts saying you didn't say things again ?
Cost is irrelevant. It would not matter of meat was supplied free and vegan food was $500 a meal it would still be wrong to eat meat.
This is not a health argument or an economic argument this is an ethical argument, pure and simple.
Eating meat is wrong in any circumstances and the people who do it should be ashamed of themselves.
Is it wrong, ironic or funny that this is the first time I have logged on to Bindy in about a week, I have just read this thread from beginning to end and I did it while eating a sausage sandwich !
Surely the main point is that what we eat is down to individual choice?
I have been known to enjoy a donnah kebab that i am told by those supposedly in the "know" is made entirely of lips and arsholes.
I have also been known at a festival to have a veggie burger from a virtually queue absent veggie van (the queue for the meat vans was huge) and being totally amazed at how nice it is.
But then i will NOT eat veal. And the aborted pig foetus thing someone mentioned Nigella lawson did - still makes me feel sick just thinking about it.
Because of that mental image I had mushroom stroganoff saturday night and I loved it.
Bangers and mash tonight tho' (more lips and arsholes I suspect)
So I do not see the debate as polarised as some do.
I do eat meat and love it
i do eat vegan and vegetarian food and love that to.
I am an Omnivore - not a Carnivore - not a Vegan.
To my mind a 100% Carnivorous diet would be as unwise as a total Vegan diet.
Beware those people whose mental state is such that they believe they are totally and absolutely correct.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20970092
No Bo, its not wrong, ironic or funny, just pretty fucking stupid considering what they put into sausages these days
Vegan and proud Wed Jan 09, 2013 16:46
"Why are we still discussing this ?"
Why? Because we live in a human-dominated world where human priorities come first.
That's why vegans are allowed to drive cars on roads which together wipe out hundreds of thousands of animals every year in painful, needless deaths. So think on that next time anyone you know gets in a car to drive off to an AR meeting. No-one who really cares about animals should ever collaborate with the roads industry. But they often do.
I agree despite how good it tasted they do put some rum stuff in the sausages these days but then considering that's what a sausage is (off cuts, lung, lips etc) it just shows how all parts of an animal can contribute to flavour.
I'd be less concerned about what goes into sausages Bo, and more concerned with what goes into pigs as they are... 'grown'
If you think that the chemicals and drugs injected into pigs etc. are part of a 'balanced diet' Bo, perhaps you need to ponder the meaning of the word 'balance' LOL
I think that all those chemicals and drugs in the food you ingest so willingly have already affected your mind and body Bo, no offence intended :)
I saw the BBC report referred to above under the title "Some consider vegetarianism to be an illness..." and this rings true for me as the partner of someone born in rural France.
My girlfriend is genuinely amazed by Vegetarians and simply does not understand why anybody would choose to give up all the flavours offered by meat. I tried to explain Veganism to her and she laughed her head off ! She thought it was so funny she called her parents in France and spent ten minutes on the phone roaring with laughter.
From what I understand most French outside of Paris think Vegetarianism is some sort of weird American invention and I think that Veganism they would deny even exists.
It's worth noting that the French eat a lot of all types of meat and are consistently around the top of the table for longest living citizens.
That's so funny !
The meat I choose to eat comes from a local butcher who farms in the organic way and gives his pigs nothing more than what pigs are supposed to eat but of course you never considered that.
By supporting a local farmer I reduce the carbon footprint of my food delivery (unlike much vegan food), keep my money in the local community (no supporting US cereal farmers like most vegans) and ensure I know the providence of my food (unknown to vegan food buyers in most cases).
Anything else because I have patients waiting?
I did laugh when I saw the post above about French attitudes to vegetarian food. On holiday in Dordogne a couple of year ago I asked a waiter what he recommended for vegetarians and he replied,
"Eat somewhere else"
LOL @ Bo
by CJD Tue Jan 15, 2013 09:41
If you think that the chemicals and drugs injected into pigs etc. are part of a 'balanced diet' Bo, perhaps you need to ponder the meaning of the word 'balance' LOL
I think that all those chemicals and drugs in the food you ingest so willingly have already affected your mind and body Bo, no offence intended :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So what about the pesticides and the excreta left in and on vegetables then?
One of the major sources of things like Toxicaria and E.coli problems are unwashed vegetables.
So to point out a possible problem with meat but then ignore the equally well known and documented issues with vegetable production is more than a little silly in my view.
Take care with your source and preparation of ALL food is sensible.
Cherry picking data is to suit a personal agenda is not.
Not sure why this subject has got so many responses because the percentage of the population that is vegan has been consistent at around 0.3% of the population for years. The latest figures from the Vegan Society show that the number of Vegans in the UK is in the region of 150,000 people which is around the same number of people who think the Rothschild Family runs the world !
Veganism is the very definition of something that is borderline cult.
HA HA HA HA!
No such thing anymore chum, thanks to filthy greedy capitalist Ecociders like Monsanto, Glyphosate is now in the rain that falls to the ground everywhere, its been found in the urine of males, organic is history.
Do some proper research!
-----------------------------------------------------
"No such thing anymore chum, thanks to filthy greedy capitalist Ecociders like Monsanto, Glyphosate is now in the rain that falls to the ground everywhere.
-----------------------------------------------------
So for veggies this much be much worse then because the chemicals you mention are drawn directly into the cell structure unlike in animals.
Was it your intention to encourage people to eat meat for health reasons ?
ROFLMAO !
You're making no sense K ~ or was that your intention?
Too much glyphosate in your system already?
Anybody that thinks that herbicides / glyphosate in food funny must be insane, or have shares in Bayer - Monsanto etc.
Try drinking some of the stuff, it might help you think a little more clearly.
Where can I get a pint of this? Sounds lovely and as it has the prefix "eco" nobody on here can criticise me for enjoying it.
Yo, Bo! I am still trying to work out whether you really are Sue Baic, or someone pretending to be her..
Given that in your post earlier you said that eating processed wheat was particularly bad, however on your/Sue's website it states "A recent study on over 800 nurses carried out in Wales showed that those who ate breakfast (which for most was breakfast cereal) had lower stress levels, fewer problems thinking and concentrating and surprisingly fewer injuries and accidents at work", and meal suggestions feature pasta, cereals and bread.
Well done to the mods for letting this topic run and deleting the attempts to derail it by people whose only form of cogent argument is calling others trolls. It is a refreshing change and has been interesting reading the views of others who sit at various points on a broad spectrum.
I fully concur
Excellent thread
by Not a Vegan Tue Jan 15, 2013 19:17
Well done to the mods for letting this topic run and deleting the attempts to derail it by people whose only form of cogent argument is calling others trolls. It is a refreshing change and has been interesting reading the views of others who sit at various points on a broad spectrum.
you just can't trust the greedy immoral dishonest callous bastards!
the simple truth is that you have no idea what you are getting when you choose to eat meat.
Horsemeat accounted for approximately 29% of the meat content in one sample from Tesco.
In addition, 31 beef meal products, including cottage pie, beef curry pie and lasagne, were analysed, of which 21 tested positive for pig DNA.
A total of 27 products were analysed, with 10 of them containing horse DNA and 23 containing pig DNA.
It said there was no risk to health... and if you believe that you'll believe anything, remember mad cow disease?
Clive's mum, you are missing the point of the posters here. Those of us who eat some meat as part of a balanced diet are well aware there are issues with the way that food is produced, we understand that a lot of these issues apply to vegetables as much as they do meat.
The point is - WE KNOW. So many vegans seem to feel they have some sort of secret knowledge that others are not aware of.
I eat meat because I enjoy the wide diversity of flavour that it offers in my meals, I have enough understanding of human biology to know that SOME meat as part of a diet is healthy.
This from todays Guardian newspaper:
'From Tesco, the level of positive DNA indicated horse-meat accounted for 29% relative to the beef content.'
YES, 29% OF TESCO'S 'BEEFBURGER'S'... ARE ACTUALLY HORSE-MEAT!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/15/horse-dna-f...rgers
Actually what the report said was that ONE VALUE BRAND for a period of ONE WEEK was found to have horse meat in a small percentage.
I'm from Southampton and a student here in Bristol, I live near Tesco Metro where I buy much of my food, I had no clue that supermarkets do this kind of thing, I regularly eat Tesco beefburgers, but after this shit, I'm going vegetarian!
i will never eat meat products again ever
I like horsemeat, nothing wrong with cheval.
Don't buy Tesco burgers, wish I had now :-(
This should create a few more Vegans lol
Makes you wonder what goes into meat but which never gets reported...
The cheap own brand burgers etc from Tesco's are appalling manufactured pulp meat that I would never buy anyway.
It is about the same as a veggie burger being contaminated with rat shit, cockroaches, manure etc because the food prep is poor. I state this because it has happened. But no idiot then portrayed this as a capitalist plot to harm all vegans and vegetarians.
Trying to score "vegan" points because a range of cheap burgers contains horse meat is the same as someone trying to defame a vegetarian diet because ONE vegetarian provider has such poor standards such that it allows contamination.
Smacks of pure desperation.
Corrupting your food?
Its what corporations-supermarkets do, for profit!
They dont give a shit about us or the animals or the earth itself.
All they care about is their fucking profits duh
The best pro-Veganism - Anti-meat-eating video.
Excerpts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQCe4qEexjc&feature=youtu.be
(10 minute version)
Complete video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNED7GJLY7I
(almost 2 hours duration)
Why all the fuss over some horsemeat ??
I can understand the vegans & veggies here making comments, it's consistent, they take the view that they don't eat meat. Fair enough
But I do eat meat, & horse is just another meat. I've eaten guinea pig, hedgehog, dog, bat, llama, crocodile, snake, emu, reindeer & more (not all in the UK !!) Horse is just another tasty source of protein ?!!
Fussy eaters I guess.
should watch the videos on www.meat.org
Meat.org - the website the meat industry does not want you to see
So your theory is that these corporations are so focused on profits that they poison the very people who buy their products ?
Think it through.
As far as eating is concerned, humans are the most stupid animals on the planet.
We kill billions of wild animals to protect the animals that we eat.
We are destroying our environment to feed it to the animals we eat.
We spend more time, money and resources fattening up the animals that we eat,
than we do feeding humans who are dying of hunger.
The greatest irony is that after all the expenses of raising these animals,
we eat them, and they kill us slowly... and rather than recognise this madness,
we torture and murder millions of other animals trying to find cures to diseases
caused by eating animals in the first place.
Harvard Study Validates Dr. Robert O. Young's Research: ABC's Diane Sawyer reveals Harvard study that proves red meat vastly increases the chances of an early death. The study is a microcosm of evidence that has become so obvious in large meat-eating nations like the United States, where the rates of cancer and heart disease are skyrocketing.
Dr. Robert O. Young states: ''Animal flesh is highly acidic and produces nitric, uric, sulphuric and phosphoric acids that cause cancer and death in humans and animals. Since the ingestion of red meat does NOT completely digest or liquify, the undigested meat sits in your stomach, small and large intestines, fermenting and rotting the cover cells of the stomach, stressing out the pancreas, and destroying the delicate intestinal villi causing stomach inflammation, indigestion, acid reflux, stomach ulcers, stomach cancer, diverticulitis, diverticulosis, irritable bowel, colitis, intestinal ulcerations, colon cancer, anemia, Type I diabetes, anxiety, depression, immune disorders, blood disorders, muscle and bone wasting, intravascular coagulation, high blood pressure, heart disease and finally death. I cannot think of one good health reason for eating meat. The ingestion of meat will over-acidfy the blood and then tissues leading to sickness and disease. Bottom-line the ingestion of animal flesh is dangerous, stupid and inhumane to animals and their right to life. My advice is to leave the animals alone. The day we stop eating meat will be the day that the lion will lay down with the lamb. We must be the change we want to see.''
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/chicago-hot-dogs-butt-canc...njk8Y
This thread has probably been the most harmful to Veganism of any on the subject that BIndy has had. Vegans have come over looking judgemental, hectoring and childish while the opposing voices have looked logical, intelligent and reasonable.
If I had ever thought of becoming a Vegan this thread would have convinced me not to. Regretfully the accusation of "Cult" is looking real.
So why are we all enjoying meat then ?
Clear
conditioning
100% agree
The pro vegans here have lost the argument as far as I am concerned.
I'm glad the scientific reports are now getting wider publicity, that will help people know the truth about the dangers of a vegan life.
This sums it up nicely:
Why go Vegan?
All around us today, the natural world is under attack. Pollution, deforestation, and systematic cruelty to animals. These forces are rapidly destroying the planet upon which we live. But how can one person make any difference?
The answer is as close as your dinner plate. Thousands of people across the country are standing up for animals and the environment by adopting a vegan lifestyle. Vegans take personal responsibility for making the world a better place by giving up meat, dairy products, and other animal derived items.
That simple choice has powerful consequences. Veganism saves animals from the horrors of the slaughterhouse, reduces pollution from factory farms, and preserves soybeans and grain for the millions of malnourished people in our hungry world.
Animals
Vegans are motivated by compassion for suffering and respect for life. Both modern science and simple common sense tell us that other animals besides humans feel pain and fear death. Vegans empathize with living creatures and they also understand that humans don’t need to eat meat, wear leather, or drink milk to survive.
Animals on a modern factory farm lead lives of unimaginable suffering and die cruel deaths before ending up on the dinner table. Intense competition drives farmers to value efficiency over natural desires. Animals are squeezed into ever smaller living quarters, even as new biotechnology is used to make animals grow bigger and produce more meat, milk or eggs. Lowering the cost per unit is the overriding goal.
Pumped up with hormones and drugs, dairy cows spend a few years in a concrete stall or filthy feed lot before they dry up and are sent to slaughter. Most calves born to dairy cows are quickly separated from their mothers, confined in tiny pens, and then killed for veal after only a few months of life. Chickens are crammed together in tiny cages and have their breaks clipped to prevent them from self-mutilating due to stress. Death is merciless and inevitable: a bolt gun or a knife ends a life spent in hell.
Vegans do not wear products derived from animals. Fur and leather are the result of suffering and exploitation. So is wool: lambs are castrated and have their tails cut off without anesthetic, and many sheep die of exposure due to premature shearing. Some cosmetics and personal care items contain animal by-products such as honey, lanolin and lard. Vegans use the widely available alternatives that are animal-free.
Experiments on animals are another source of suffering. Rabbits, dogs, rats and many other beings die to test soap and make-up or in medical research that many doctors have condemned as irrelevant to human health. The agony suffered by animals in research facilities is all the more outrageous because cruelty free alternatives exist.
People
Veganism also saves human lives. Diet is a major factor in three of the leading causes of death in America today. The risk of heart disease, cancer, and stroke can be dramatically reduced by a non-dairy vegetarian diet. Vegans also virtually eliminate the possibility of contracting e. coli, salmonella and spongiform encephalopathy (a fatal condition transmitted by the flesh of animals suffering from "Mad Cow Disease").
But going vegan won't just save your life. A better diet is also an important step towards solving the terrible problem of world hunger. Animal agriculture is a grossly inefficient way of growing food: experts estimate that at least seven pounds of grain or soybeans are needed to generate one pound of meat. Food that could be going directly to hungry people is instead being inefficiently funneled into producing steaks and hamburgers. Animal agriculture also wastes staggering amounts of water and energy. One thing is clear: if all the people of Earth are going to be fed, we must eat more wisely.
The Environment
How we eat also affects the air, the water, the forests and the oceans. The production of meat has a devastating impact on the subtle web of connections that sustains life on our planet. Rainforests are leveled to raise cattle, factory farms pollute rivers and lakes, over-grazing erodes fertile land into arid desert, and vast quantities of energy and water are wasted to raise animals for food. At sea, huge fishing drift nets turn acres of ocean into graveyards. All this damage to the earth can be stopped. Taking meat and dairy off your plate will make a difference.
Veganism is essentially about compassion
This horse-meat incident "is yet another example of why the industry isn't fit to regulate itself"
Religious leaders have expressed concern at DNA from horses and pigs being found in frozen beefburgers.
Jewish leaders warned such incidents must not happen again, while the Muslim Council of Britain said it was worried by the whole issue of misdescription of food.
John Benjamin, chief executive of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, said: "Observant Jews would only eat certain types of meat, and even then only if the animal had been killed in accordance with the laws of kosher food production.
"Those that might be less observant and might eat beef that is not strictly kosher would still avoid pork and horsemeat, and we hope that mistakes in meat processing are not repeated. Keeping to a kosher diet would normally avoid the risks of such contamination."
Shuja Shafi, deputy secretary general of the Muslim Council of Britain said: "As a general consumer, the misdescription of food products is a matter of great concern for us. As far as we are aware, these products are not labelled as halal, and therefore from a faith-dietary perspective this particular incident does not seem to affect the Muslim community.
"However, companies providing meat or any such food products, as well as food retailers, need to make sure proper assurance schemes are set in place so consumers feel comfortable in knowing what they are buying."
Unison, which represents staff in the UK meat industry, warned of "swingeing cuts" in trading standards and meat hygiene services. Proper government investment could have meant the scandal being picked up in the UK rather than missed because of reliance on the Irish authorities, it said.
Based on their input on this thread I would say that is a HUGE exaggeration!!
I would say they lie, they manipulate facts, they appeal to their greater "authority" and ignore just about everything that conflicts with their Vegan ideals.
Yep - best description of Veganism is most certainly "an eating disorder masquerading as a cult"
A lot of similarities with the Scientology Hubbard b0ll0x that appears on here from time to time.
The only thing Vegans seem to care about is the hight of that pedestal they want to sit on.
Perhaps they are just more suggestible than most people ?
Vegans seem to display the habits and behaviours of cult followers:
1 - follow a belief system at odds with over 99% of the human race
2 - adopt a lifestyle that requires personal inconvenience in support of point 1
3 - attempt to convert others
4 - refuse to consider scientific evidence they disagree with.
5 - ridicule those who hold opposing viewpoints.
6 - have a self image of superiority.
Vegan Ethos is a community resource for ethical vegans.
For the ethical vegan, veganism does not end at the bottom of the list of ingredients.
Ethical vegans reject the commodity status of animals and the use of animal products for any purpose.
Ethical veganism recognizes the connection between the rights of humans and the rights of non-human animals.
The ethical vegan acknowledges the value and the importance of a vegan diet, and from that foundation strives to eliminate the exploitation of animals in every possible aspect of life.
“Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses”
Plato.
But if it is quotes you want - in your case, perhaps ignorance is bliss.
"It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance"
Thomas Sowell.
"Veganism isn’t just a strict vegetarian diet; it is a complete philosophical viewpoint. It is practical in outlook, simple to understand and aspires to the highest environmental and spiritual values. I am sure it holds the key to a future lifestyle for a humane planetary guardianship."
Howard Lyman, former cattle rancher, US
(Source: AR Zone interview transcript, 2010)
“Now, at 92, after a life-time of Veganism, Food Reform, Herbalism, Yoga and Quaker belief, I am happy to say that I am still physically and mentally active. Every day, I practice my yoga and meditation. I belong to the national network of “Growing Old Disgracefully” and the University of the Third Age…”
Kathleen Keleny-Williams, vegan since birth, UK
(Source: Vegan Stories edited by Julie H Rosenfield, 2002)
“We believe that veganism is an answer to many ecological problems. The meat industry produces more greenhouse gas emissions than the auto industry… Sea Shepherd promotes veganism as an answer to mitigating our damage to the environment.”
Captain Paul Watson, Sea Shepherd Conservation Society
(Source: AR Zone interview transcript, 2010)
“Veganism to me is simply knowing that I haven’t been a part of exploiting any living thing for my own purpose.”
Daniel Johns, Silverchair lead singer, Australia
(Source: Vegan Voice magazine, #17, 2004)
“By going vegan, you strengthen our collapsing environment and strike a blow for fairness in the developing world. You improve your health and life expectancy. And you no longer play a part in the abuse of millions of animals.”
Julia Gallateley, founder of VIVA! and author of The Silent Ark
(Source: Vegan Voice magazine, #17, 2004)
“I chose to adopt a vegan lifestyle for several reasons. For one, a vegan diet is probably the healthiest diet a person can follow. Secondly, a vegan lifestyle is the kindest, most compassionate step an individual can take to reduce animal suffering and environmental destruction.”
Kyenan Kum, from the Korean Animal Protection Society, Korea
(Source: Vegan Voice magazine, #17, 2004)
"It is the very core of veganism to not support anything that promotes speciesism."
Mark Jordan
(Source: AR Zone Blog, 2010)
“Veganism is something each of us can do to reduce non-human suffering. It’s a boycott against cruelty and injustice. As vegans, we demonstrate that lifestyle is a matter of choice and conscience.”
Joan Dunayer, author of Animal Equality and Speciesism, US
(Source: Vegan Voice magazine, #17, 2004)
“Being vegan nourishes me physically, spiritually and politically.”
Jim Mason, animal rights author, US
(Source: Vegan Voice magazine, #17, 2004)
“I actually found it was easier to become vegan than it was to become vegetarian.”
Ken Golding, son of a butcher, UK
(Source: Vegan Stories edited by Julie H Rosenfield, 2002)
“Veganism to me means living the least invasive way on the planet, living humbly within all of Creation, living with respect for all of Creation, and showing a way of life which takes the least of Mother Earth’s resources.”
Alice Shore, International Network for Religion and Animals, Australia
(Source: Vegan Voice magazine, #17, 2004)
“This is what veganism has to offer, a moral baseline for how we conduct ourselves in the world.”
Harold Brown, former beef and dairy farmer, US
(Source: AR Zone interview transcript, 2010)
“On a practical level, veganism is a way of demonstrating to others that you can lead a happy and healthy life which does not require the suffering and death of animals.”
Mel Broughton, animal activist, UK
(Source: Vegan Voice magazine, #17, 2004)
"I can understand that many people consume animals out of ignorance; but how can otherwise kind and thoughtful people know the truth and simply not care enough to change?"
Rosemary A. Amey, Canada
(Source: Vegan Stories edited by Julie H Rosenfield, 2002)
“My life’s mission is to convince as many people as possible to GO VEGAN as soon as possible, by presenting the most compelling information regarding the alleviation of the suffering and murder of innocent animals, improving human health and social conditions, achieving environmental sustainability, etc... And isn’t it the obligation of every parent to explore vegan cuisine as the alternative to condemning his or her child to heart disease, cancer, stroke, diabetes, obesity, osteoporosis, and premature death?”
Bob Linden, creator and host of Go Vegan Radio, US
(Source: AR Zone interview transcript, 2010)
"Veganism is not just about food, like vegetarianism. It's about the way you live your life: the food you eat, the clothes you wear, the products you use, how you deal with people and everything in your life."
Rowan McCartney, UK
(Source: Vegan Stories edited by Julie H Rosenfield, 2002)
“Veganism is merely a first and minimum standard, not the final or the best standard…. the line drawn is only a minimum standard of decency, not a maximum standard of purity.”
Dan Cudahy
(Source: http://unpopularveganessays.blogspot.com, 2009)
"Being a vegan is a source of pride and personal satisfaction to me... Through changing my lifestyle, I found well-being, balance, happiness, and harmony with nature, animals, other people and, above all, with myself."
Estrella Vilaplana, Spain
(Source: Vegan Stories edited by Julie H Rosenfield, 2002)
“Veganism is in many ways an evolution; not merely a diet choice, but a complete shift in perspective. As one of my favorite Gentle World volunteers said, ‘you can’t be vegan on and off — you’re either vegan or you’re not.’ As I look back over the last 27 years of my life, I wonder how it is that it took me so long to stop being lazy and live my life the way I’ve always said I wanted to: with love, kindness and honesty.”
Alisa Rutherford-Fortunati
(Source: www.GentleWorld.org )
"So many of you have a misconception of the definition of veganism. The media and many so-called “vegan” groups have turned it into a plant-based diet, and some of them say you don’t have to be strictly adherent and still can call yourself a vegan. This is NOT the Truth. Vegans take the rights of other animals seriously, and it is not a matter of convenience for the human, but a matter of justice for other animals."
Marcia “Butterflies” Katz
(Source: http://quotesonslavery.org August 2011)
"What is the point of trying to persuade anyone to go “vegetarian”? Vegetarianism = enslavement, torture, exploitation and slaughter of animals. Why spend our time and resources trying to convince people that is a worthwhile thing to do, instead of waking them up to veganism? The time is now. It has always been now."
Elizabeth Collins
(Source: http://quotesonslavery.org July 2011)
"People say that being a vegan creates a social problem in that others may react negatively. But isn’t that the case if you take a principled position on any issue, whether it’s racism, sexism, heterosexism, violence as a general matter – or speciesism? The key is to educate others about why you take the position."
Gary L. Francione
(Source: http://quotesonslavery.org March 2011)
"So many people will say, “Oh, that’s right, you can’t eat this” in regards to my veganism. Almost as if they’re saying I’d have my vegan club card revoked if I ever dared to consume something non-vegan… (But) it’s not that I can’t eat a burger made out of someone’s flesh, drink a cold glass of someone’s secretions, wear someone’s skin, etcetera – because I could anytime I want. It’s that I choose not to because that would mean I was obviously contributing towards the continuance of an industry that enslaves and uses others to death."
Randy W. Sandberg
(Source: Quotes On Slavery, August 2011)
"With all the evidence available to us about the role of health and food in illness and disease prevention; about the environment and how our food choices here affect the whole world's food supply; about animals and how they are herded into factory farms, where they live a miserable life of servitude before dying for people's consumption: knowing all this, how can we not raise our children vegan? That, in my mind, would be truly unfair."
Melanie Wilson, www.vegetarianbaby.com, US
(Source: Vegan Stories edited by Julie H Rosenfield, 2002)
"Veganism is my stand for world peace."
Barbara DeGrande
(Source: AR Zone blog 2011)
“What veganism is, in essence, is ahimsa, nonviolence, and it is a mentality of radical inclusion – of including all living beings within the sphere of our compassion, without exception. The only way that we can hyperconfine, mutilate, and kill cows, pigs, chickens, fish, and other sentient creatures is by the active and ongoing practice of a mentality of exclusion – excluding them from the sphere of our natural concern and caring. Veganism is the antidote to this, and it means practicing the opposite mentality – a mentality of inclusion.”
Dr Will Tuttle
(Source: AR Zone, Interview Transcript, September 2010)
“Please go vegan. It’s incredibly easy to do. It is the best thing for you and for the planet. And, most importantly, it is the morally right thing to do. We cannot justify killing nonhumans for our trivial purposes, no matter how 'humane' our acts of injustice are.”
Professor Gary L. Francione, US
(Source: www.abolitionistapproach.com © Gary L. Francione)
Let us PLEASE be realists! - there are difficulties for the vegan. There's the notorious difficulty of vitamin B12. This vitamin, essential for health, is found in more than adequate amounts in animal products (including dairy products and eggs) but not in plant products.
In practice, vegans take supplements, the products of chemical factories, or should do. To me the fact that a vegan diet requires supplements exemplifies the fact that the strict vegan diet is not a healthy balanced diet.
Many Vegans are so sure they are right that they don't take supplements. This to me is very dangerous. Especially in pregnancy. The advice on this given in 'The Vegan Cookbook' is highly irresponsible:
“.......if you plan to be exclusively vegan on a permanent basis, it's probably better to be safe than sorry and take a vitamin B12 supplement. Even though you probably won't actually need it, it won't do you any harm!”
REALLY!!!!!!????
Tom Sanders, Professor of Nutrition and Dietetics at King's College, London:
“Despite being warned that the lack of vitamin B12 is a problem, it seems that many vegans don’t heed the dietary advice seriously and follow their own pet nostrum, thinking they will adapt to a diet deficient in vitamin B12.
Our research has shown that about one third of vegans have worryingly low intakes of vitamin B12, which puts them at an increased risk of damaging their spinal cord and brain as well as increasing the risk of stroke and cancer.
Vegan mothers who do not take vitamin B12 risk causing brain damage in the babies they breastfeed.”
>>>>>>>>>>>
So if you want to be a Vegan – be one – nobody cares that much about what YOU do! - It is YOU that cares too much about what everyone else does!
And if you want to be Vegan – accept the fact that it is an incomplete diet – that it is NOT a balanced diet and do yourself and your children and unborn children a favour and take supplements.
Excellent post JH. You have hit the nail on the head perfectly.
A Vegan diet is inherently unnatural and unhealthy as illustrated by the need to take supplements. If people want to live that life then fine but act responsibility toward teenagers and babies and provide correct advice if asked.
"So if you want to be a Vegan – be one – nobody cares that much about what YOU do! - It is YOU that cares too much about what everyone else does! "
Agree with this. In the end it's down to the fact that I won't interfere in your choice of diet, so don't interfere with mine. Applies to lifestyle too. People can do what they want, as long as it doesn't get in my way or cost me anything.
In the end Darwinism will have it's way.
These are good theories but as anybody who has come across vegans knows this is a diet choice that is also a lifestyle choice, as was alluded to above the 'cult like' feel of veganism means we often see an evangelical style need to 'convert' others. I experienced this during one of the Climate Camps where the two Vegan women in the tent next to ours berated us all through the time of the camp for drinking milk and having cheese. Finally we had to make our views clear in a direct confrontational way (very much to our regret) to stop the harrasment.
.
TESCO's beef-burgers 'contaminated' with horse-meat (27%) we learned last week.
Today we learn that some horse-meat may be contaminated with a potentially carcinogenic drug which may have entered the human food chain:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/jan/24/horse...-bute
The claim that bute could have entered the food chain follows the revelation that burgers sold by Tesco and other supermarkets contained traces of horsemeat.
Ten million burgers have been taken off supermarket shelves across Ireland and the UK as a result of the scandal.