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Recent articles by Bristol cyclist
Refurbished Bicycle Sale - Wed 8th May Apr 23 13 Refurbished Bicycle Sale - Wed 6th March Feb 19 13 Reduce First bus fares Dec 24 12 Fatal road traffic collision with a tandem bicycle. bristol |
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opinion/analysis
 Tuesday January 29, 2013 11:56 by Bristol cyclist
 Following the fatal road traffic collision with a tandem bicycle, police officers are questioning a 38-year-old man on suspicion of death by dangerous driving. "The Citroen had landed in my neighbour's garden, facing the wrong way round, and another neighbour said she had seen it fly through the air. "Bits of the bike were up the road, with the saddle in one garden and the handlebars in another." "We were told by neighbours that before hitting the cyclists the Citroen had hit a number of cars before flying into the air. The above lines, copied from local press, relate to the tragic death of two cyclists who were thrown from their bike as they cycled along Lower Hanham Road at about 4pm on Sunday. Can anyone tell me how many cyclists have caused the death by dangerous cycling to any car, lorry or coach driver? I can think of may incidents of cyclists being killed by motor vehicle drivers. Many cyclists are injured also. Regularly. Yet these conditions continue to be tolerated AND in Bristol - laughingly hailed as: BRITAIN'S FIRST CYCLING CITY !! Ha! If this car driver is found to of been speeding and responsible for these two people's death then surely it is nothing less than double manslaughter? How can it not be? Is it not about time stronger legislation is brought into place to prosecute this selfish and irresponsible behaviour? A great deal more has to be done by the authorities that place themselves in power and claim to be looking out for the good and well being of our society. But I sure as hell ain't gonna hold my breath. So as per usual it is down to us. With this in mind it's time to get active in order to protect vulnerable road users everywhere. I suggest we start with a Critical Mass. They've seemed to of died out in Bristol so it appears high time we remind motor vehicle users and the planners that cyclists are traffic too and therefore require consideration and greater protection from the law. Anyone else feel the same? If so what date and time? |
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Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41By all means target bad car drivers but please be aware that the public does see cyclists as law breakers as well.
"A cyclist was sent to prison for killing a pedestrian – using a law passed in 1861.
Darren Hall was jailed for seven months after admitting ‘wanton and furious driving causing bodily harm’.
The supermarket worker struck Ron-ald Turner, 84, after jumping on to a pavement to run a red light.
The law is still used because there is no other appropriate legislation to prosecute cyclists who kill or seriously injure pedestrians.
But Hall, of Weymouth, Dorset, is the first to be jailed for many years.
Yesterday, Mr Turner’s daughter, Gillian Muhl, described 20-year-old Hall as riding ‘like a bat out of hell’, adding her father stood ‘no chance’ of avoiding the collision in Weymouth in August last year.
The victim’s family urged ‘all cyclists to stay off the pavement’.
Outside Dorchester Crown Court, Sgt Tony Burden of Dorset Police said charging Hall under wanton and furious driving reflected ‘the gravity of the incident’.
‘There is no such thing as causing death by dangerous or careless cycling,’ he added.
.....................
This is not an isolated case - a quick search and you come up with a number of cases where bad cycling has caused injury or death.
In the case above, Darren Hall is as guilty as the driver in the Citroen in Bristol - the only difference is that the Citroen driver broke an established law. There is no law to prevent dangerous cycling.
Many pedestrians and other road users think there should be.
So do I - and I am a responsible road user whatever vehicle type i use.
If death by dangerous cycling was indeed a frequent experience then there would be a law passed specifically to deal with it. The reason the case you cut and paste about (which of course isn't in Bristol - finding a local case would probably have been impossible despite the protestations that this isn't an isolated incident) was charged under an obscure old law is that death by dangerous cycling is an extremely rare occurrence.
On the other hand people being maimed or killed by drivers is a fairly common event, hence there being laws around driving without due care and attention, dangerous driving, and causing death by dangerous driving. Other countries have additional laws such as vehicular manslaughter to deal with people killed by car drivers because these are common incidents.
The sad truth, is that if you really want to kill someone in the UK and don't mind doing some time, the way to do is to run them over with car. Maximum sentence is 14 years. Remove a bit for any lenience/pleading guilty, good behaviour while inside etc and you're out a damn sight sooner than any other killer will be
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causing_death_by_dangerous...iving
Yes, a CM is needed urgently.
Perhaps with a large number, if not all of us, dressed in black?
To differentiate between a 'regular' CM and the next 'Mourning' CM?
That should have the effect of causing motorists to think for once.
Flyers explaining our 'mourning mass' to be handed out?
May I suggest you re-read my article? Yes I'm aware of cases of cyclists hitting, injuring and alas also causing death to pedestrians.
However my article was aimed at MOTOR VEHICLE DRIVERS and law makers/planners specifically. OK?
Critical Mass during a rush hour anyone?
Otherwise how about a Saturday? Maybe even take in some deathbikes along the way.......
I love these debates that always end up with pointing the finger at *all* car drivers murdering cyclists aas a standard part of their daily commute.
The facts are that cyclists are about as likely to be killed on the roads as motorists per mile travelled. There is a nice graph here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/sep/28/roa...-data
What we should all be up in arms about is the road users that have appalling roadcraft whatever mode of transport they use (don't forget that a lot of people use both a car and a bike *gasp*).
Today I have driven over 250 miles, 200 of that on the motorway. whilst on the motorway I contended with over a dozen cars driving erratically (pulling out, tailgating, generally having no awareness of those around them). For none of these did I have to take any extreme evasive action.
Around 50 miles were spent driving around Birmingham and Bristol. Whilst around town the car based traffic was pretty slow and consistent. I did however have 2 buses pull straight out in front of me, someone stop dead outside a school without indicating nearly causing an accident, and a number of pedestrians walk straight out in front of me (worrying one was a child "in the care" of her mother). I have also had to perform 2 emeregency stops due to cyclists, 1 when one came straight out on to Bedminster bridge roundabout through a red light and another when one came belting along the pavement and over a zebra crossing without stopping - I'd estimate he was doing at least 15mph so in 1 second covered about 10metres ie a long way away from the crossing. I lose count of the number that have undertaken me when I have been turning left in slow traffic.
I have also seen cars pulling out on cyclists, pedestrians stepping out in front of cyclists and cyclists riding like prats hopping from pavement to road.
Basically I could have killed a number of people today but didn't due to my actions. I have had to be pro-active to prevent killing people who have deliberately chosen to put themselves in harms way (except maybe the child - I blame the mother).
My point is that there are many twats on the road. However, the vast majority of people get on with their commute/travel perfectly well. It is the twats we need to wipe out (hopefully Darwin will get them)
PS I am also a cyclist.
errr... could it be cuz cyclists dont kill ANY motorists?
nor do cyclists contribute to climate change.
Excellently reasoned and well crafted rebuttal. You are the exact type of person I was directing the first line of my comment to.
"errr... could it be cuz cyclists dont kill ANY motorists"
But have been known to kill pedestrians, and, I would hazard have been contributory in causing accidents in which motorists have died.
"nor do cyclists contribute to climate change."
Wrong for 2 reasons:
1) as stated previously, many cyclists own a car. Also you have no data taken from a stratified sample of cyclists showing their attitudes to the environment. Lots of cyclists do things that contribute to climate change - a fair number of politicians cycle, Boris Johnson being one and I am sure you won't be holding him up as an aspirational figure.
2) If what you really meant was "nor does *cycling* contribute to climate change" then you would be wrong on again.
At some point in its lifecycle, a bike is produced. It is made of metal and transported often from Asia. Both create gases that are detrimental to the environment... Here's a link with more info and some decent links to follow if you want more information:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2012/ma...-blog
Now, I am not saying that cycling is *as* bad for the environment as driving, I am saying that to say it is not bad at all is disingenuous.
So, here is quote from official accident investigation statistics:
"With adult cyclists, police found the driver solely responsible in about 60%-75% of all cases, and riders solely at fault 17%-25% of the time."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/15/cycl...study
Depending what data you use, cycling miles make up between 1 and 2% of total UK travel miles (depending if you include motorways or not). So cylists do 2% of the miles but are to blame for up to a quarter of the accidents we are involved. The realist in me says that this has to be because if I mess up and ride in front of a car, the accident will be pretty much guaranteed to be serious and the police involved, and I will soon be part of these statistics yet if someone reverses their car into my car at low speed then it won't become part of the stats. If they reverse over me on my bike, then I'm a statistic again.
I stand by my original point - if the minority of people who have no awareness of how to use the roads, or who simply think they are too important to obey the traffic rules (taxi drivers spring to mind here), were either taken off the road or educated so that they were good road users than life would be far more simple.
Sorry for all the ranting but it really annoys me when people immediately start slating all drivers/cyclists/pedestrians for the actions of a few - mind you, I just did the same to taxi drivers...
So when are we gonna have our next CM then, this saturday?
Pedestrians and Drivers in Cambridge are well fed up with aggressive cyclists - in particular the jumping of red lights and pavement jumping when it suits them.
Looks like a crack down is in the offing there.
If cyclists do not follow the rules - we will get more attention applied to what we do when riding.
http://www.varsity.co.uk/news/5389
I think the ritualised exchange of insults between 'cyclists' and 'motorists' that always attends these kind of stories is a waste of time. If you look at the countries that combine high levels of cycling with very low accidents rates for cyclists (eg Holland and Denmark), it's not because they are all charming law-abiding cyclists who stop at every red light; it's because serious money and thought have been put into creating a road landscape that meets the needs of drivers, cyclists and pedestrians. The conflict between cyclists and drivers is created by road systems that force incompatible modes of transport into the same space.
For example, road junctions in towns are designed around cars. Most of the time cyclists jump red lights because they can see that it's safe to do so; the red lights are there to meet the needs of cars, not cyclists.
Likewise, cyclists and pedestrians basically get on fine together on car-free cycle paths; accidents are caused when the main road space is dedicated to cars and laid out in a way that makes cyclists feel unsafe; they therefore ride on the pavement, which is far too narrow, putting pedestrians at risk.
I'm not condoning either of those choices - it makes me very cross when I'm walking along a pavement with my two little girls and I see a grown man riding towards me. But if you want to change something, it's no good just getting angry about the symptoms, you have to try to understand the cause.
I think we need a huge programme of redesign for road spaces. I would like to see 'home zones' across most residential streets, so that there were very few short cuts through residential areas, with cars entering slowly to park but not passing through. I'd like to see 20mph limit across towns and cities; bike-only lanes on all major routes, separated by high curbs not just painted on; and extensive re-design of road junctions to allow cyclists and pedestrians to flow through much more easily.
The flip side is that we should also make life easier for people who are driving. Massive free car parks at suburban train stations; major roundabouts reworked so that cars and bikes don't have to mix; raise the motorway speed limit to 80mph in recognition of universal driving practice; and so on.
Of course, all of that also needs to take place alongside massive changes in public transport - suburban train services, cheap buses, re-nationalise the train companies... It's not rocket science, go to Freiburg or Copenhagen and see how pleasant and easy transport can be!
My heart goes out to the families and friends of these two lovely cyclists - who were not riding on the pavement.
You lot are (generally) incrediable.
I suggested my post be read and if you did then you see there's no mention of climate change or cycling on pavements, jumping red lights or using mobile phones while progressing down the highway in charge of a motorised machine. O.K.?
I wanted to raise the topic of the huge number of cyclists deaths on the roads as a result of car,van lorry and coach drivers.
I wished to open a discussion on this subject and how it be tackled. In respect to those who have died in this way, their family and friends and try to reduce the number.
But you lot of self centred prikes were unable to do so.
As I rode into work this morning it occurred to me that one thing the authorities may respond to is the huge financial cost and strain on resources these 'accidents' are costing the state, e.g. police, ambulance, cleaning up, repairs, insurance pay outs, court costs, possibly prison costs and wrecked/damaged lives of the survivors.
I am also wondering if you big mouthed selfish types, who attempt to move this posting from its original aim by throwing additional crap into the mix, would be so insensitive if you were talking face to face with the relatives of the pair killed by a car driver?
Pete - in answer to your question.
It seems unlikely due to reader apathy.
Stay safe you all.
Appalling display of insensitivity displayed on this thread, I feel so sorry for the victims of this horrible crime and for their kinfolk, and for every one of the people who knew the victims who are grieving today, my deepest sympathies naturally.
I regularly have to step onto the road because a car is blocking the pavement. As a cyclist I had to jump to the pedestrian section because a delivery van blocked the bicycle section. Should I run over the dog on the cycle path, jump to the street in front of a car or try to evade through using the pavement?
Ever had contact with a suddenly opening car door? That's nothing compared with a sudden open lorry door in front of your head.
Ever fell into a construction hole because nobody bothered to inform the cyclist that there is one just around the corner?
When I drive a car I keep my distance to any cyclist and cause looong queues, until I find a way to savely overtake them. Costs me not more than a few minutes on a long journey. And It's well within my usual safety margin planned for the trip.
And no, I don't use the horn unless there is real danger. Cars and bicycles have brakes. And using the bike for tens of thousands of miles has trained my brake reflexes.
I lived for three years in Rotterdam, Netherlands one of the most bike friendly cities in the world with a policy that says bikes have absolute priority over all other vehicles and that in an accident the presumption of guilt is with the car driver. For the first week or so I was in heaven but after a while I realised the problems this causes:
Bikers ride with no consideration for other uses including other bike users and simply ride where they want, when they want.
Bike on bike accidents are very common with the lack of insurance for bikes meaning damages are never usually recovered.
People ride with a somewhat smug, "I have priority" air about them meaning that they take very little care to avoid accidents and when they do have them they are often fatal.
Because drivers know they will be blamed for accidents regardless of the circumstances drive offs are the norm with injured riders often left in the road.
Jumping of lights is very common and bikes hitting pedestrians is a major problem
The current generation of new drivers coming into car ownership all drive like they have been riding their bikes when young, the rate of young people car accidents in the Netherlands is the highest in Europe.
Thanks for caring Nikky love x
Grateful to you Nikky, for your obvious compassion, I am with you in your respect for the dead and caring for the mourning families and friends left alive but suffering.
Typical cyclist, all about you, no matter where the debate goes, it is all about you.
If you care .................... about the victims ................... and their brothers and sisters, mums and dads, uncles and aunties, cousins and nephews, other relatives, friends, and the community generally ................ it is very personal
Some motorists care more about their vehicles than they do people obviously
I have, many times, most days in fact
Personal transportation via a bicycle is rather like a horse; a once commonplace choice that makes no sense in light of technological developments. Trains replaced carts and carriages, bicycles replaced horses, cars replaced bicycles.
In the same way that horses are now mostly separate from cars and used for recreation bicycles should be kept away from modern roads and kept to tracks and recreation facilities. They have no place on the roads.
"They have no place on the roads."
You are right of course but the supporters of riding on the road don't see it that way and think, for reasons of their own, that car drivers should for some reason accommodate the requirements of those who refuse to embrace the current technology.
I'm a firm supporter of riding a bike and do it most weekends but in the same way I would not ride a horse on the A3 I do not cycle down it either.
With the idiots and trolls pissing on everything here its probably counterproductive arranging another CM on Bindy-M, so I'm gonna do a ring-around and get mates to do the same, anyone else fancy doing something similar?
@Gave up bikes as a child - don't be silly. I travel by bike wherever possible because it's faster, cheaper and more enjoyable than driving. For commuting into Bristol from my house, driving would take around 15 minutes longer. It is not in any way more efficient or modern to take a three-piece suite and a ton of steel with you on every journey as a kind of mobile security blanket.
A modern bike is a miracle of advanced technology. A device that costs a few hundred quid and weighs ten kilos allows me to travel at 20mph with no more effort than walking at a brisk pace - that's what I call technology!
Cars, on the other hand, are at the tail end of a brief flowering of popularity, made possible by a freak period in which humanity had access to incredibly cheap energy. Within our children's lifetimes - probably within our lifetimes - private cars will be obsolete. So get ahead of the curve and get a bike!
type 'cyclists numbers rising' into your search engine and learn...
Another superbly reasoned response. Well done
QUOTE "With the idiots and trolls pissing on everything here" END QUOTE
Sorry Pete but these "idiots and trolls" represent the majority of the population, and their "pissing on everything here" actually means that they don't agree with "everything here" they also rather stupidly assume that they have a right to voice their opinions without realising that, in spite of all their diatribes and posturing, Bindy Anarchists have no interest in freedom of thought or speech unless it is their own.
Norman Baker: speakiing to the Guardian.
"I certainly think drivers should be aware of the needs of cyclists. I think the driving test does that to some extent already. The best way to make drivers more aware of cyclists is to have more cyclists on the roads. That's what's happening in London and I think driver behaviour in London is changing as a consequence, and changing for the better."
Egos aside a good debate that's thrown up some interesting points. Thanks for everyone who contributed (even the sadly pathetic trolls, I guess everybodies got to have a home).
However I still feel the authorities are getting off all too lightly here as they allow the sale and use of vehicles unsuitable for today's driving conditions, encourage everyone to take a bike for the shorter trips at least, yet spend nothing on accommodating these different modes of transport. Divide and rule?
As a result we are to some extent at each other's throats. The situation continues unchanged at present, hence my suggestion of a Critical Mass. Although I agree with you Pete, this was the wrong place to suggest and put together such an idea.
At the end of the day I'd suggest we're all responsible for each others safety. Bon voyage :^))
likee likee
Does this indicate the underlying hatred of cyclists for cars?
It seems to me that whilst Car Drivers do not overall "hate" cyclists as more and more are both these days, those cyclists that are only cyclists carry a hatred of anything to do with cars.
And yet those that drive motorised vehicles on the road have to have the thing MOT'd have to have insurance, have to have road tax, have to have passed a test.
Cyclists do what of these exactly?
And yet - and I speak of as a cyclist myself, some cyclists seem to think they have more rights than anyone else including pedestrians!
It is this attitude of some cyclists that is the most corrosive and is fostering the growing anger at the arrogance and law breaking of cyclists on our streets and pavements.
Organise a CM if you want - it will do you no good whatsoever - such is the ill feeling towards cyclists already any more disruption to other peoples daily lives will simply create more anger against cyclists.
what cyclist?
what driver?
look again - this time with a CLEAR mind
SEE:
one cyclist free cycle
one driver free car
T H A T I S A L L.
everything else you 'saw' is in your assumptions.
I think it is you that is missing the point.
You are looking too literally - yes the cycle has no rider - yes the car has no driver!
Are you REALLY then saying that the valid points made previously can be dismissed because the poster has not realised this?
I read it that he interprets the message correctly.
Whereas your point only makes sense if you think both cycles and cars have minds of their own :0/
From the Guardian article, find link below.
1. If cycling conditions remain much as they are across Britain, cycling will remain a very minor mode of urban mobility, practised mainly by a committed hardcore of cyclists who feel able to "do battle" with motorised traffic, while being completely off-putting for "the normal", and vast, majority. Current conditions for cycling STOP Britain cycling.
2. A significant increase in levels of cycling requires a reversal in the balance of power between the car and the bicycle. Travel by car for short trips in urban areas must become more difficult, so that it starts to feel abnormal and exceptional. In contrast, policies must be put in place that make cycling easy, safe, comfortable, and accepted as the normal and obvious way of moving around urban areas for most people.
3. It is essential that the urban environment is made safe for cyclists. This requires provision on all arterial and other busy roads in urban areas of dedicated space for cycling, separated from both motorised traffic and pedestrians. It is clear from the research that most non-cyclists and recreational cyclists will only consider cycling regularly if they are separated from motorised traffic and that pedestrians are hostile to pavement cyclists.
4. There needs to be effective restrictions on traffic speeds, parking and access on all residential roads and other routes without dedicated cycle and pedestrian paths so that cyclists (and also pedestrians) feel that they have a safe and convenient environment in which to travel. This could include 20mph speed limits and resident-only access by car in some areas.
5. All provision for cycling should be predicated on people often needing and/or wanting to travel as a group. It is very rare indeed for people currently to feel able to cycle together in British cities, which is a significant barrier to cycling in general but family and child cycling in particular; this must change for cycling to become normal. Dedicated cycling provision must be designed for group rather than solo cycling, and where cycling shares space with motorised traffic cyclists should be given priority.
Smart contribution Jane.
Exactly the kind of views I was hoping for.
Until routes are updated there will always be problems - I think anyway.
The biggest problem with cycling in this country is that most of the time it's pitch dark, freezing and pissing with rain. Also Bristol is for the most part too hilly for easy cycling, particularily for the very young or older people. Cars are warm and comfortable. When you find a way of convincing people to come out of the warmth and comfort into the dark and the rain and cold to make routine journeys in discomfort then you might get somewhere. No amount of safety planning, political indoctrination or cycle lanes will change this. People don't like being uncomfortable.
That is the most sensible comment of late.
You two ever heard the saying 'there's no such thing as bad weather only bad clothing'?
It is a good phrase to remember at all times whether walking or cycling.
"You two ever heard the saying 'there's no such thing as bad weather only bad clothing'?"
Yes but they understand when one is in a car one does not need to worry about being dressed in a waterproof romper suit just to get to a destination.
Bikes are fun don't get me wrong, I ride mine most weekends but as a sensible form of commuting transport they are not the right choice.
Moustache?
http://bristol.indymedia.org.uk/article/712582?comment_...59147
Calls for better safety at Hanham site of tandem deaths of Ross and Clare Simons